All Blacks v Italy

[African Monkey]

@kiwiinmelb He's one of those cult heroes who does a few spectacular things to get the crowd behind him, plays for the Highlanders who would be most peoples 2nd favourite team just to up his cult hero status a little bit more and puts tape around his head in an unconventional way to get himself a few more popular votes behind him. He's passable at Super Rugby level but there are much better options than him at the next level.

[ACT Crusader]

@African-Monkey are you suggesting the coaches and selectors are drawn into this cult status that certain media and fans have of him and that is why he's selected?

Because I'd love to know who all these other much better options are that the selectors seem to be overlooking.

[Username]

Some stats from the game:

Dixon - Luatua
Tries 1 - 1
Carries 11 - 11
Metres 80 - 37
Clean breaks 3 - 2
Defenders beaten 2 - 0
Offloads 1 - 1
Try assists 1 - 0
Passes 7 - 9
Lineout catches 3 - 4
Tackles 5 - 7
Missed tackles 0 - 0
Turnovers conceded 0 - 1

[kiwiinmelb]

@ACT-Crusader said in v Italy:

@African-Monkey are you suggesting the coaches and selectors are drawn into this cult status that certain media and fans have of him and that is why he's selected?

Because I'd love to know who all these other much better options are that the selectors seem to be overlooking.

I think that is it , while he may not be the next big thing , some of his competitors are possibly potentially better , but are probably no closer to being better test players at this point in time , right now . Although I may have taken luatua over him .

That is why I think it's a wait and see situation . It's not that clear cut yet , it may be later .

[African Monkey]

@ACT-Crusader No they wouldn't but at this stage I would have Kaino, Luatua, Squire, Ioane (despite his rough edges there's still plenty to work with and has far more upside to his game than Dixon), and I'd even have that midget Taufua ahead of him in a big test after seeing Dixon at test level. At least we know what we'll get with Taufua if he got given an opportunity and he wouldn't leave anything in the tank.

Dixon would be on the level of Brad Shields'/Taleni Seu (who could overtake him in the next year or 2 if he puts a bit of bulk on.

[mariner4life]

Highlights were good. Thats a terrible result for Italian rugby to get destroyed by that team.

Super limited things i took from the highlights: we missed dagg and ALB badly last week. Smith responded to his kick up the ass, PT too. Our scrum looked great; crockett destroyed some demons.

Those who watched what did we learn? How was Luatua? Cruden?

[KiwiMurph]

The full game is up on youtube if anyone wants to watch.

Yeah was hard to read too much into it because the Italians were so poor but there was definitely a lift in intent in the forwards as compared to last week - they were smashing rucks. Discipline was a lot better also.

Luatua was very good I thought. He cramped up with about 15 or so to go but was into everything prior to that - he hit a lot of breakdowns, took lineout ball, showed a real intent in everything he did (including defence).

Hansen's comments on Luatua - "He was very good, until he started cramping up. And then he became a bit of a passenger.

"We didn't have anyone else to put on, otherwise he would have come off. A big improvement from Steven. Now he just has to continue that."

Cruden I thought was a bit up and down - some good stuff but some ropey stuff too.

[No Quarter]

I thought S Barrett was excellent. A menace at lineout time, strong defense and some strong carries. As Nisbo said he looks every bit a test player. If Sam is no good he should start with BBBR next weekend.

You are right @mariner4life we did miss Dagg and ALB, they were both very influential in this match. As someone posted earlier ALB makes whoever he is paired with looks good. He has incredible vision, reads the plays very well and always makes good decisions. A meoteoric ride for that kid. Dagg is in the form of his life at the moment and seems to have recaptured the speed off the mark he had early in his career.

I thought Cruden was good, took it to the line and was accurate with his short kicks which were an obvious tactic. Sopoaga was also good when he came on - we have great depth at 10 with those three in the squad.

The forwards were the key though, Crockett and Charlie F very strong. Pat T had a much bigger impact and Cane led from the front, with Dixon and Luatua both doing their core roles well. Italy simply had no answers and their tactics suggested damage control rather then trying to take the ABs on - did they not watch Ireland last week?!

[Rancid Schnitzel]

@mariner4life said in v Italy:

Highlights were good. Thats a terrible result for Italian rugby to get destroyed by that team.

Super limited things i took from the highlights: we missed dagg and ALB badly last week. Smith responded to his kick up the ass, PT too. Our scrum looked great; crockett destroyed some demons.

Those who watched what did we learn? How was Luatua? Cruden?

Where is Italian rugby at the moment? They've been in the 6 nations for almost 2 decades but still got hammered by a score similar to what a Jonah/Cullen team would have nailed them by back in the day.

They were supposed to have turned the corner in the mid-90s but just seem worse than ever.

[KiwiMurph]

What was so wrong with Naholo? He took his try, helped set up another try with a powerful run from a scrum (Crockett's try I think it was), had one magnificent high ball take, and used his speed on occasion to create other breaks.

[taniwharugby]

Reckon some pretty harsh comments on here about that effort, always tough to gauge in a high scoring match like that, but we simply didnt give them much at all.

Naholo reminds me a bit of Sivi in the way he chases, like there is no rush to get to the ball, but when he wants to go...

But jeez ALB is looking a bit special.

[Tregaskis]

@Rocky-Rockbottom You might want to go and check out out highlights of Luatua's try then. The sequence went: Cruden with perfect cross field kick into Taylor's breadbasket, superb offload to Dixon, offload to Luatua, try time.

Haven't seen the full game, so obviously when I do I can check out all the ratshit cross field kicks from Cruden.

[gt12]

@KiwiMurph

I think he makes a number of small, but crucial mistakes, that undo much of the good he does - dropped pillbeing and missing tackles. Ill try to watch the game again, and see if I'm judging him too harshly (he did have one great take).

I'd have Charlie P on the left he had stayed right now.

[Bones]

@booboo said in v Italy:

@Bones said in v Italy:

Did Steven Kerr-Barlow lead the haka? Was the quickest in a long time.

Tawera's brother?

When they announced the team at the ground they flashed up Steven on the screen and the announcer called him that from then on, it was pretty funny.

[pukunui]

Just finished watching the full replay on youtube after catching highlights earlier.
Italy were pretty pathetic. Offered nothing, tried nothing. Just kicked the ball away all day. Don't see what you could hope to achieve by doing that. Hope the fullback drops it? or kicks it back and out on the full? Then they celebrate their one try from an intercept like they are minnows at the world cup, just happy to be playing the big guys and scoring a try is as good as winning. Pretty shit from a country that has been in the 6 Nations for a long time.

From the ABs perspective i thought Crockett, ALB, Luatua, Naholo and Dagg were all good. Great to see Ioane go well on debut as well. Could have a big future.

TKB, Dmac, Dixon and Cruden not so great. Cruden really needs to put away the shitty attacking kicks. One came off but the rest just killed momentum. He seems to have gone backwards since BB took the number 1 spot. Goal kicking was good though.
Dixon didn't really have the impact we expect from our 6. Thought he bombed a try in the first half by throwing a silly offload 5m out from the line with guys outside him. Also thought the draw and pass for the Luatua try would have been a better option rather than risking the offload in the tackle. They scored anyway so hard to criticise.
I think the comparison with Thompson is probably pretty fair. Decent player but not entirely suited to test rugby and may get overtaken by guys who fit better. Squire/Luatua etc. Still early days though.

Naholo had a decent game i thought. Made some good runs and didn't drop many, if any. IMO him and Savea are pretty similar in what they offer. Both good on attack and rarely get pushed back in a tackle but both prone to tits for hands. Naholo probably slightly in front on the form side at the moment even if it is just handling. Savea probably ahead for "good" games this season though (after his good games vs Australia). Im happy for them to keep rotating until one is clearly ahead.

Edit: I also noted that Luatua went into lock with BBBR late in the game. Scrum went pretty well with him there too.

[Siam]

I wanted nothing more than a win. Couldn't really give two stuffs how we got the win. Just wanted a win - same as it's always been. In a world where you can't take no shit for granted, a win after a loss is paramount in my mind

And what a marvellous win it was!

The young lads, the dirt trackers in old currency really stood up. They showed eagerness, (but not too much), they showed adventure and they sent a well timed message to the rest of the squad about standards and effort.

Fucken well done young'uns

Looking for holes and criticisms is a bit wanky I reckon, but each to their own.
This was the most inexperienced team for ages and with so many 100% starters not there, it was a rather unique test match for the men in black

The Eyeties had no attacking clue, but when have they ever?
They did front up on defence though and our breaks and tries were not from defenders falling off tackles but rather speed of hand, clever offloads and finding different ways to get over the gainline.
The Italians tackled better than the Aussies in Sydney for sure but were always in damage control, and their "just kick it back" tactics didn't help

Cane, Cruden, Crockett and Dagg demonstrated excellent composure and examples to others in their demeanour and leadership.

Barrett is a definite keeper - got his line out ball with ease and is very good around the park. Pat T pilfered heaps and was strong in contact.

Front row and scrum was solid as. Charlie and Wyatt were playing like fatting boom bah backs and Taylor is a fine 2nd hooker behind Dane.

Cane was smashing people and Dixon was not noticeable in the first half but certainly no passenger. Like Luatua he played fine and contributed a lot to the win.
If those stats posted by username above are accurate (no reason why they shouldn't be) then all those posters saying Luatua did more than Dixon are deluded, and proof that confirmation bias is alive and well on the fern.
Not saying either doesn't have deficiencies when compared to Read and Kaino but fuck they played well in a big win so shitting on either seems churlish to me.

TKB was the only one to feel a bit down afterwards. He's a fine 3rd halfback in the squad but was a little rattled and less composed last night.

The zing in the backline and off rucks returned with toilet boy and it was good to see him crisp and nippy again, although I think it'll take a wee while for his swagger to come back after all the shit he's been through/put on himself.

Cruden was good, took the ball to the line well and there's a few comments about his cross field kicks and chips which got me thinking:

1. they're obviously a team plan. No doubt examined, practiced and spoken about in detail all week - so it's not really cruden deciding to do them

2. on most occasions the cross field kicks (ALB did some too I think) were regathered and a gain over the advantage line and forward momentum was achieved. The alternative in those situations when the kicks took place is through the hands (Italians were rushing up well in a good formation) where the winger gets no space on the touchline and everyone (sic) wonders why he doesn't go all Jonah and beat 3 tacklers to score from 40 metres out. (insert finger circling mental smiley)

3. The kicks were all done in our half or on halfway so no prime attacking ball was really wasted

4. They're good tactics and, like all rugby plays rely on the execution which was fine. They are another way of turning a team around and sure you can't always score off them but they played a part in creating the momentum for tries to come a few phases after

Naholo was solid, ran hard but they always double teamed him. We ask a lot of our wingers when we shovel it straight out and for the most part he recycled the ball over the mainline after a planned battering ram injection about 2 out from a ruck

Dang's pass to Feki for the first try was training stuff executed perfectly. Dagg MUST pass immediately and Feki MUST be in the right place - for a move from a scrum it was just the fillip the team needed so early

Good wheels from Izzy these days too

ALB is class

Feki was much better - ran hard and didn't die with the ball

Little Damian is a brave wee fella and did some really good things. There's a lot to like there but we'll see if size is an impediment to staying in the job, particularly when it's apparent that BFA and Izzy are better All Black fullbacks

Like I said, I fucken enjoyed that performance. I feel no need to state the obvious and point out who the players *aren't * rather I'm pleased that they responded to a challenge and got us a very fine win against a team who didn't offer a lot but never gave up in defence either.

Randoms:
BT net feed commentator was muted after incessantly talking non stop during the first 2 minutes - cockhead. Who was he and the kiwi comments man BTW?

Parisse is a very good and skilful player, struts and ponces around though

Nigel seemed lazy around ruck time but played very good advantages and it was clear his intent was to keep it flowing

What to do about the constant stoppages for medical treatment and spraying magic aerosols? One time the hooker stayed down for ages (Nige thought fuck it and let the play continue around him and the medico). Play stopped for a scrum, still he stayed down. I thought "fuck maybe he broke the ankle they're spraying?" He still stayed down. eventually he got up and trotted over without even a fucking limp.
It's an annoying blight but I can't see a way out of it as some nancy will wail "legitimate injury!!"

I reckon Nige was thinking penalty try just before Pat's try. Good reffing to let it go

Weird camera angles on the BT feed but with the sound muffled it felt like sitting high up in the stand

Lovely to have it in the can at halftime and thereby give all the subs good gametime

Did I mention it was great that we got a win and the young fellas made a good statement to the 1st choices in their blazers for next week?

Overall a pleasantly surprising and fulfilling 80 mins of rugby watching at 1am for this ferner

[mooshld]

I'm not surprised by the result Italy have been on the slide for a few years now. But they really fired no shots at all in this game.

Going to be another tough 6 nations for them next year unless Conor has some tricks up his sleeve.

[Unco]

Not sure why everyone's whining about Cruden's kicking. I thought he overdid it a bit but they were still all well timed and placed, so at worst he pinned the Italians inside their 22. If you want to see a bad kick, look for that chip Dagg did in the first half. May as well have gift wrapped it for the Italians.

Decent game but got pretty messy in the last 20-30 minutes, so that was disappointing. Going through the team: Crockett and Charlie were fantastic, SBarrett continued to show he belonged, PatT had a much improved game, Cane still wasn't back to his best but led well and it was great to see Luatua back in there. For the backs, good game from TKB, loved that quick flat pass from the base of the ruck for Pat's try. I mentioned Cruden above but also thought he directed the backline really well and did a great job with his goal kicking. ALB is a star and his combo with Fekitoa seemed to work even better than the one with Crotty (though we'll have to wait and see how it fares against decent opposition). And Dagg has really come into his own on the right wing, I kinda feel like he's better than he ever was at fullback.

Biggest disappointment was definitely Dixon. The Thomson comparison sounds about right, good player but doesn't have the game for international rugby. Might be a good team man to have around but with our insane depth in the loosies, not really needed. DMac wasn't great either but I think he showed his potential at points, he just needs to adjust to that level of rugby, put on a bit more weight and cut down on the errors. I think he'll get there eventually.

Worst part of the game was the shitty camera work. Couldn't have been more obvious whoever was directing it was brought straight across from soccer, what with the entire game shown from way up high and close-ups relegated to replays. Sucked.

[pukunui]

@Siam said in v Italy:

Cruden was good, took the ball to the line well and there's a few comments about his cross field kicks and chips which got me thinking:
1) they're obviously a team plan. No doubt examined, practiced and spoken about in detail all week - so it's not really cruden deciding to do them

2. on most occasions the cross field kicks (ALB did some too I think) were regathered and a gain over the advantage line and forward momentum was achieved. The alternative in those situations when the kicks took place is through the hands (Italians were rushing up well in a good formation) where the winger gets no space on the touchline and everyone (sic) wonders why he doesn't go all Jonah and beat 3 tacklers to score from 40 metres out. (insert finger circling mental smiley)

3. The kicks were all done in our half or on halfway so no prime attacking ball was really wasted

4. They're good tactics and, like all rugby plays rely on the execution which was fine. They are another way of turning a team around and sure you can't always score off them but they played a part in creating the momentum for tries to come a few phases after

Really? Are you saying they are a team plan for only when Cruden is at 1st 5? Because Barrett isn't playing from that plan and Sopoaga hasn't been either. I don't mind the tactic when used sparingly against a rushing defence but it is something Cruden has been over doing for a while now. The offensive bomb into the Italian 22 was particularly shit IMO.

Agree on the camera work being bad. Zoomed way too far out for rugby. Happens every time we play in Italy.

[Siam]

@pukunui said in v Italy:

@Siam said in v Italy:

Cruden was good, took the ball to the line well and there's a few comments about his cross field kicks and chips which got me thinking:
1) they're obviously a team plan. No doubt examined, practiced and spoken about in detail all week - so it's not really cruden deciding to do them

2. on most occasions the cross field kicks (ALB did some too I think) were regathered and a gain over the advantage line and forward momentum was achieved. The alternative in those situations when the kicks took place is through the hands (Italians were rushing up well in a good formation) where the winger gets no space on the touchline and everyone (sic) wonders why he doesn't go all Jonah and beat 3 tacklers to score from 40 metres out. (insert finger circling mental smiley)

3. The kicks were all done in our half or on halfway so no prime attacking ball was really wasted

4. They're good tactics and, like all rugby plays rely on the execution which was fine. They are another way of turning a team around and sure you can't always score off them but they played a part in creating the momentum for tries to come a few phases after

Really? Are you saying they are a team plan for only when Cruden is at 1st 5?

I'm saying it was a team plan against Italy on November 12 2016 - yes.

That's the game we're talking about isn't it?