Aussie Pro Rugby
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I’m genuinely curious if the outrage and condemnation of Folau would be as strong and intense if he was a faithful follower of the world’s biggest and fastest-growing religion, instead of an ignorant Christian? I suspect more than a few people of conscience might defend him on the grounds of culture and upbringing, as I’ve heard those excuses made in the past, but I just don’t know, maybe the pile-on would be greater?
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He wasn't fired for his religious beliefs, as some in the media are suggesting. He was fired because RA presented him with a contract that said he would face sanctions if he did this one specific thing. He signed said contract, and then did said thing almost immediately.
And then he blocked their calls when they tried to talk to him about it.
It's a workplace discipline issue, not a religious one.
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
An interesting angle here is that in NZs bill of rights, and I'm sure Aus has it in a human rights act, people are protected from discrimination based on their religious beliefs.
Firing a guy based on his religious beliefs fits that bill perfectly.
He wasn't fired for his religious beliefs, though. He was fired because RA presented him with a contract that said he would face sanctions if he did this one specific thing. He signed said contract, and then did said thing almost immediately.
And then he blocked their calls when they tried to talk to him about it.
It's a workplace discipline issue, not a religious one.
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
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@No-Quarter true.
However, while I don't back RA to be overly professional, they wouldn't be moving to terminate unless they had grounds to do so
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@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
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@nzzp said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
I suspect the contract thing is the key, but there could be an interesting legal battle about what you can and cannot be contracted to be outside of 'work'. I'm no lawyer, but the tension between freedom of association and religion and how an employer can control this could be an interesting courtroom discussion. I mean, what about joining unions, or joining a white supremacist group, or a gang, or ... well whatever really.
In the end, it wouldn't surprise me if the technical reason for the termination was due to not answering phonecalls (ie not being available), rather than for expressing the beliefs. Either way, due process seems to have been avoided and it may come back to bite the ARU.
we'll see I suppose. Weird to think I may have seen the last game Folau played in Union at Eden Park!
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
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@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
Apologies. I didn't mean for the post to be having a shot at you specifically. I was just trying to make my point in a way that contributed to the general flow of the thread, if that makes sense.
I'll delete the quote now to avoid confusion.
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@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Precisely. Just because both parties agree to a clause doesn't mean it has any force. Just like non-compete clauses; courts have determined those in the narrowest fashion.
At very least he has violated their Inclusion Policy, and I'm sure there is mention in the contract of adhering to all policies, codes, etc.
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I guess one interesting issue for discussion is whether an employer can legally insert a clause in a contract ordering an employee to refrain from making public statements regarding his/her deeply held religious views. Has this been tested by the courts before?
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@No-Quarter said in Aussie Rugby in general:
You cut my post in half and took it out of context. I specifically talked about the contract, and how none of us actually know what was written into it.
Apologies. I didn't mean for the post to be having a shot at you specifically. I was just trying to make my point in a way that contributed to the general flow of the thread, if that makes sense.
I'll delete the quote now to avoid confusion.
@barbarian nah no worries, I'm not in complete disagreement with you, and was corrected on the discrimination laws later in the thread anyway.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
I think it's just one of the many compromises you have to make when you run a professional sport in Australia.
Every code faces the same issue - what level of off-field shit are you happy to put up with to retain a star player? David Warner hardly embodies CA's values, same with Dusty Martin in the AFL. And let's not even start on the NRL.
There's a line somewhere that varies based on how talented the player is. And Izzy is fucking good.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel isnt there likely to be the part about bringing the game and ARU into disrepute?
I expect there is something in there about sponsors too, who are likely to be offended with all thier dollars?
Heard a dude on the radio say if Jesus was real, he expects he woudl be fine with all those people Israel says will go to hell...he reckons Jesus seems like he would be a good fulla, he turned water into wine for people, took the rap for peoples sins...
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@Nepia said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@antipodean said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Machpants said in Aussie Rugby in general:
When he posts it loud and proud on social media, it is everyone's business
He broke the Inclusion Policy of AR (2014) that he signed up to, just the same as everyone who signs up to specific behaviour for their job. He got a warning last time - apparently not this time
If everyone just went about their daily lives and ignored his post the world would be a better place. Instead everyone is running around drawing attention to it, magnifying the problem they assert exists. Does anybody think sacking him will stop him posting religious nonsense?
What does the ARU think his fellow religious PIs think about this outcome?
What should it matter? Do they all have to group think?
He breached the terms of his contract, all PI players should know not to breach your contract.
I missed this, not they don't all have to group think. But there's a number for whom their religion forms a very large part of their individual and group identity.
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@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
I think it's just one of the many compromises you have to make when you run a professional sport in Australia.
Every code faces the same issue - what level of off-field shit are you happy to put up with to retain a star player? David Warner hardly embodies CA's values, same with Dusty Martin in the AFL. And let's not even start on the NRL.
There's a line somewhere that varies based on how talented the player is. And Izzy is fucking good.
Not really. It's one thing behaving like a drunken tool and another publicly stating that gay people are headed for hell. Anti-racism is also important for AR. If a guy made a disgusting racist comment on Twitter (for example, mixed race couples are an abomination) and refused to back down, would it be an acceptable compromise when running a professional sport to make that guy the poster boy for and face of your sport? If they want to loudly proclaim they're working to create a better world they can at least be fair dinkum about it. Same goes for those hypocritical twats at Qantas.
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@taniwharugby said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel isnt there likely to be the part about bringing the game and ARU into disrepute?
I expect there is something in there about sponsors too, who are likely to be offended with all thier dollars?
Heard a dude on the radio say if Jesus was real, he expects he woudl be fine with all those people Israel says will go to hell...he reckons Jesus seems like he would be a good fulla, he turned water into wine for people, took the rap for peoples sins...
Yeah I've never understood the alcohol thing. Jesus saved the day by turning water into wine. How can drinking alcohol then be a sin? And of course the Eucharist with the wine being my blood etc. Surely not drinking alcohol is a sin!
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Izzy is an old testament kind of guy no?
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@Paekakboyz said in Aussie Rugby in general:
Izzy is an old testament kind of guy no?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@barbarian said in Aussie Rugby in general:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aussie Rugby in general:
But it all goes back to the perverse situation of an organisation that professes to being inclusive and supporting of gay rights paying stupid money to a guy who has publicly said that gays are going to hell to be the image of rugby union in Australia. What a complete joke.
I think it's just one of the many compromises you have to make when you run a professional sport in Australia.
Every code faces the same issue - what level of off-field shit are you happy to put up with to retain a star player? David Warner hardly embodies CA's values, same with Dusty Martin in the AFL. And let's not even start on the NRL.
There's a line somewhere that varies based on how talented the player is. And Izzy is fucking good.
Not really. It's one thing behaving like a drunken tool and another publicly stating that gay people are headed for hell. Anti-racism is also important for AR. If a guy made a disgusting racist comment on Twitter (for example, mixed race couples are an abomination) and refused to back down, would it be an acceptable compromise when running a professional sport to make that guy the poster boy for and face of your sport? If they want to loudly proclaim they're working to create a better world they can at least be fair dinkum about it. Same goes for those hypocritical twats at Qantas.
Mixed races not ok either, in the old testament
1 Kings 11:1-43
Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, from the nations concerning which the Lord had said to the people of Israel, “You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods.”
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Wow so many layers to this one. All of it really a storm in a teacup truth be known. Nonsense talk in a fragile world.
I guess the employment contract holds sway
If Izzy is ok with the termination then it's no different to us leaving a job. Each to their own
On a side note if anyone is offended by Izzy's articulation of his make believe friend's expectations then you're of no use to our species and have a retarded view of the physical world
If you're offended on behalf of someone else you haven't met, then you need counselling for your nihilismIn my opinion
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@Siam from what I heard on the radio on the way home today, Israel is not happy with his impending termination and will fight it, also apparently does not regret his post
