McKenzie, Mo'unga etc
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@nzzp said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in All Blacks Vs England, Twickenham:
We lost a test series at Home v Ireland the First test v SA in SA in 2022 with Barrett at First five.
Beat SA in SA,England in England ,Ireland in the QF at WC and should have won the WC final v SA if it wasn't for the TMO all with Mounga at first five.
I know who I would rather have at First five going forward.That would be Mo'unga with 4 years starting at 10 right?
But you'd discard DMac after 8 tests this year?
I reckon DMac has a higher ceiling at Test level than RM, and I'd have been playing him through this tour. Mo'unga played a few good games in black at the back end of his career, but going into the RWC you wouldn't say he'd taken his chances. Overall win rate of 70% in black remember.
I suspect it is hard to gauge Mo'unga-led ABs against Dmac-led ABs- the former had Smith and some rather experienced senior players.
It may be easier to compare Mo'unga versus BB then again I thought I read somewhere recently that BB admitted his leg was only 80% during the last RWC and fixed in Japan. When I read that I thought what the hell was BB doing at the RWC? -
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@canefan said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I can't be bothered reading through the entire thread, so what I am about to say might have already been said. I read comments from some (Chris is the only one that springs to mind) that try to say Razor is in a tough spot and that justifies BBs inclusion at 10 due to a dearth of options. I call bullshit on that. Razor has fucked around with all of his selections, everything lacks direction. He had Plummer, who offers something different but along with other players in the squad Razor has shown no appetite to at least try them out in a proper game situation. Giving guys like Proctor, Plummer and others a serious audition, for example a start in the final Bledisloe test, would have been easy enough to do. He has done much the same as what Foster did, wasting valuable reps on known quantities that aren't going to provide a realistic answer to his problems, instead of rolling the dice and trying to find out exactly what he has
Yeah the problem with that is They had to give D Mac more and more game time because he wasn’ t getting the job done,they keep playing him against Fiji and Japan etc hoping he would show something but he didn’t.
So we are where we are with 2 shit fucking options.
And they may have known what they had in the other options playing them against Fiji and Japan would have shown fuck all.
So I call BS on that as well.McKenzie showed plenty: for once we've looked like we have the ability to beat a rush defence, and have a ten who can pass and put other players into space. Mistakes? Sure, but he was also the source of about 90% of the good things we did.
What actually happened as far as results go is that the team didn't get the job done in the last 20. Oh except for the 2nd Bledisloe, where McKenzie came on.
That's shit coaching, shit use of the bench, and shit on-field leadership, but somehow I don't expect you to call the two Scotts 2 shit fucking options.Nope they are not kicking out on the full and throwing dumb erratic passes when the last pass would have yielded tries or crabbing across field running our outsides out of space,that is on D Mac.
Are you trying to tell me 90% of all the good things we have done this year are down to D Mac lol.Then just play him we don't need the other 22.90% in terms of creativity in the backs yep. Who else has created anything? Jordie? Rieko?
All of the negatives you list are worse with Barrett, but you'd have to add numerous instances of kicking the ball away. -
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@canefan said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I can't be bothered reading through the entire thread, so what I am about to say might have already been said. I read comments from some (Chris is the only one that springs to mind) that try to say Razor is in a tough spot and that justifies BBs inclusion at 10 due to a dearth of options. I call bullshit on that. Razor has fucked around with all of his selections, everything lacks direction. He had Plummer, who offers something different but along with other players in the squad Razor has shown no appetite to at least try them out in a proper game situation. Giving guys like Proctor, Plummer and others a serious audition, for example a start in the final Bledisloe test, would have been easy enough to do. He has done much the same as what Foster did, wasting valuable reps on known quantities that aren't going to provide a realistic answer to his problems, instead of rolling the dice and trying to find out exactly what he has
Yeah the problem with that is They had to give D Mac more and more game time because he wasn’ t getting the job done,they keep playing him against Fiji and Japan etc hoping he would show something but he didn’t.
So we are where we are with 2 shit fucking options.
And they may have known what they had in the other options playing them against Fiji and Japan would have shown fuck all.
So I call BS on that as well.McKenzie showed plenty: for once we've looked like we have the ability to beat a rush defence, and have a ten who can pass and put other players into space. Mistakes? Sure, but he was also the source of about 90% of the good things we did.
What actually happened as far as results go is that the team didn't get the job done in the last 20. Oh except for the 2nd Bledisloe, where McKenzie came on.
That's shit coaching, shit use of the bench, and shit on-field leadership, but somehow I don't expect you to call the two Scotts 2 shit fucking options.Nope they are not kicking out on the full and throwing dumb erratic passes when the last pass would have yielded tries or crabbing across field running our outsides out of space,that is on D Mac.
Are you trying to tell me 90% of all the good things we have done this year are down to D Mac lol.Then just play him we don't need the other 22.90% in terms of creativity in the backs yep. Who else has created anything? Jordie? Rieko?
All of the negatives you list are worse with Barrett, but you'd have to add numerous instances of kicking the ball away.What about the shit passing or are you blinded by that I would say 90% of the shit stuff in the backline is down to D Mac.
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I grudgingly admit BB played really well in that game off the bench against England and I think I saw glimpses of him with guile or go-forwards and drawing tacklers before passing, but he is still too often static, slow, kicks away useful ball or dishes out terrible hospital passes.
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@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@canefan said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I can't be bothered reading through the entire thread, so what I am about to say might have already been said. I read comments from some (Chris is the only one that springs to mind) that try to say Razor is in a tough spot and that justifies BBs inclusion at 10 due to a dearth of options. I call bullshit on that. Razor has fucked around with all of his selections, everything lacks direction. He had Plummer, who offers something different but along with other players in the squad Razor has shown no appetite to at least try them out in a proper game situation. Giving guys like Proctor, Plummer and others a serious audition, for example a start in the final Bledisloe test, would have been easy enough to do. He has done much the same as what Foster did, wasting valuable reps on known quantities that aren't going to provide a realistic answer to his problems, instead of rolling the dice and trying to find out exactly what he has
Yeah the problem with that is They had to give D Mac more and more game time because he wasn’ t getting the job done,they keep playing him against Fiji and Japan etc hoping he would show something but he didn’t.
So we are where we are with 2 shit fucking options.
And they may have known what they had in the other options playing them against Fiji and Japan would have shown fuck all.
So I call BS on that as well.McKenzie showed plenty: for once we've looked like we have the ability to beat a rush defence, and have a ten who can pass and put other players into space. Mistakes? Sure, but he was also the source of about 90% of the good things we did.
What actually happened as far as results go is that the team didn't get the job done in the last 20. Oh except for the 2nd Bledisloe, where McKenzie came on.
That's shit coaching, shit use of the bench, and shit on-field leadership, but somehow I don't expect you to call the two Scotts 2 shit fucking options.Nope they are not kicking out on the full and throwing dumb erratic passes when the last pass would have yielded tries or crabbing across field running our outsides out of space,that is on D Mac.
Are you trying to tell me 90% of all the good things we have done this year are down to D Mac lol.Then just play him we don't need the other 22.90% in terms of creativity in the backs yep. Who else has created anything? Jordie? Rieko?
All of the negatives you list are worse with Barrett, but you'd have to add numerous instances of kicking the ball away.What about the shit passing or are you blinded by that I would say 90% of the shit stuff in the backline is down to D Mac.
He hasn't been accurate. The pattern they are trying to develop puts a lot of pressure on him, too much I believe. But as I said before, if he was doing that poor a job trying to do what Razor wants, why has he not been dropped earlier?
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if we're going to talk about shit passing in the backline I am surprised a certain David Havili hasn't been mentioned yet. For balance, you can add some cameos from Ioane and Tele'a (I think) and Reece. TJP has surely also contributed?
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@nostrildamus said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
if we're going to talk about shit passing in the backline I am surprised a certain David Havili hasn't been mentioned yet. For balance, you can add some cameos from Ioane and Tele'a (I think) and Reece. TJP has surely also contributed?
It's a hot field as far as shit passing in the backline goes.
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@nostrildamus said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I grudgingly admit BB played really well in that game off the bench against England and I think I saw glimpses of him with guile or go-forwards and drawing tacklers before passing, but he is still too often static, slow, kicks away useful ball or dishes out terrible hospital passes.
Beauden can still draw and pass in space - always has been able to, because he's a decent fullback. What he can't do is play in the line and put people in gaps.
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@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@canefan said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I can't be bothered reading through the entire thread, so what I am about to say might have already been said. I read comments from some (Chris is the only one that springs to mind) that try to say Razor is in a tough spot and that justifies BBs inclusion at 10 due to a dearth of options. I call bullshit on that. Razor has fucked around with all of his selections, everything lacks direction. He had Plummer, who offers something different but along with other players in the squad Razor has shown no appetite to at least try them out in a proper game situation. Giving guys like Proctor, Plummer and others a serious audition, for example a start in the final Bledisloe test, would have been easy enough to do. He has done much the same as what Foster did, wasting valuable reps on known quantities that aren't going to provide a realistic answer to his problems, instead of rolling the dice and trying to find out exactly what he has
Yeah the problem with that is They had to give D Mac more and more game time because he wasn’ t getting the job done,they keep playing him against Fiji and Japan etc hoping he would show something but he didn’t.
So we are where we are with 2 shit fucking options.
And they may have known what they had in the other options playing them against Fiji and Japan would have shown fuck all.
So I call BS on that as well.McKenzie showed plenty: for once we've looked like we have the ability to beat a rush defence, and have a ten who can pass and put other players into space. Mistakes? Sure, but he was also the source of about 90% of the good things we did.
What actually happened as far as results go is that the team didn't get the job done in the last 20. Oh except for the 2nd Bledisloe, where McKenzie came on.
That's shit coaching, shit use of the bench, and shit on-field leadership, but somehow I don't expect you to call the two Scotts 2 shit fucking options.Nope they are not kicking out on the full and throwing dumb erratic passes when the last pass would have yielded tries or crabbing across field running our outsides out of space,that is on D Mac.
Are you trying to tell me 90% of all the good things we have done this year are down to D Mac lol.Then just play him we don't need the other 22.90% in terms of creativity in the backs yep. Who else has created anything? Jordie? Rieko?
All of the negatives you list are worse with Barrett, but you'd have to add numerous instances of kicking the ball away.What about the shit passing or are you blinded by that I would say 90% of the shit stuff in the backline is down to D Mac.
That's just BS. I think the only pass to ground the last 5-6 games from Dmac was that ridiculous one that slipped out of his hands against Japan.
The other passes where he created try scoring opportunities against Aus in Wellington the support runners didn't align properly.
I just can't wait to see us look 10x less threatening this weekend than we have all year without Dmac at 10.
I think people are seriously underestimating how much good work he has done for us this year.
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@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@nostrildamus said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
if we're going to talk about shit passing in the backline I am surprised a certain David Havili hasn't been mentioned yet. For balance, you can add some cameos from Ioane and Tele'a (I think) and Reece. TJP has surely also contributed?
It's a hot field as far as shit passing in the backline goes.
A sign that we are pushing far too hard right now
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@kpkanz said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@canefan said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I can't be bothered reading through the entire thread, so what I am about to say might have already been said. I read comments from some (Chris is the only one that springs to mind) that try to say Razor is in a tough spot and that justifies BBs inclusion at 10 due to a dearth of options. I call bullshit on that. Razor has fucked around with all of his selections, everything lacks direction. He had Plummer, who offers something different but along with other players in the squad Razor has shown no appetite to at least try them out in a proper game situation. Giving guys like Proctor, Plummer and others a serious audition, for example a start in the final Bledisloe test, would have been easy enough to do. He has done much the same as what Foster did, wasting valuable reps on known quantities that aren't going to provide a realistic answer to his problems, instead of rolling the dice and trying to find out exactly what he has
Yeah the problem with that is They had to give D Mac more and more game time because he wasn’ t getting the job done,they keep playing him against Fiji and Japan etc hoping he would show something but he didn’t.
So we are where we are with 2 shit fucking options.
And they may have known what they had in the other options playing them against Fiji and Japan would have shown fuck all.
So I call BS on that as well.McKenzie showed plenty: for once we've looked like we have the ability to beat a rush defence, and have a ten who can pass and put other players into space. Mistakes? Sure, but he was also the source of about 90% of the good things we did.
What actually happened as far as results go is that the team didn't get the job done in the last 20. Oh except for the 2nd Bledisloe, where McKenzie came on.
That's shit coaching, shit use of the bench, and shit on-field leadership, but somehow I don't expect you to call the two Scotts 2 shit fucking options.Nope they are not kicking out on the full and throwing dumb erratic passes when the last pass would have yielded tries or crabbing across field running our outsides out of space,that is on D Mac.
Are you trying to tell me 90% of all the good things we have done this year are down to D Mac lol.Then just play him we don't need the other 22.90% in terms of creativity in the backs yep. Who else has created anything? Jordie? Rieko?
All of the negatives you list are worse with Barrett, but you'd have to add numerous instances of kicking the ball away.What about the shit passing or are you blinded by that I would say 90% of the shit stuff in the backline is down to D Mac.
That's just BS. I think the only pass to ground the last 5-6 games from Dmac was that ridiculous one that slipped out of his hands against Japan.
The other passes where he created try scoring opportunities against Aus in Wellington the support runners didn't align properly.
I just can't wait to see us look 10x less threatening this weekend than we have all year without Dmac at 10.
I think people are seriously underestimating how much good work he has done for us this year.
Haha BS of course it wasn't D Macs fault he walks on water.
He fucked up at least 5 scoring chances with shit passing. -
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@nostrildamus said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I grudgingly admit BB played really well in that game off the bench against England and I think I saw glimpses of him with guile or go-forwards and drawing tacklers before passing, but he is still too often static, slow, kicks away useful ball or dishes out terrible hospital passes.
Beauden can still draw and pass in space - always has been able to, because he's a decent fullback. What he can't do is play in the line and put people in gaps.
Yes no major disagreement from me there.
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@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@nostrildamus said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
if we're going to talk about shit passing in the backline I am surprised a certain David Havili hasn't been mentioned yet. For balance, you can add some cameos from Ioane and Tele'a (I think) and Reece. TJP has surely also contributed?
It's a hot field as far as shit passing in the backline goes.
Not exactly a back but Aumua has sweet secret passes when in form.
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Asking as I didn't get to see all of the last test but was Roigard's pass slower than Ratima's? And is that his normal speed? I thought Roigard last year was passing a bit quicker than he was in the last test?
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@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@reprobate said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@Chris said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
@canefan said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I can't be bothered reading through the entire thread, so what I am about to say might have already been said. I read comments from some (Chris is the only one that springs to mind) that try to say Razor is in a tough spot and that justifies BBs inclusion at 10 due to a dearth of options. I call bullshit on that. Razor has fucked around with all of his selections, everything lacks direction. He had Plummer, who offers something different but along with other players in the squad Razor has shown no appetite to at least try them out in a proper game situation. Giving guys like Proctor, Plummer and others a serious audition, for example a start in the final Bledisloe test, would have been easy enough to do. He has done much the same as what Foster did, wasting valuable reps on known quantities that aren't going to provide a realistic answer to his problems, instead of rolling the dice and trying to find out exactly what he has
Yeah the problem with that is They had to give D Mac more and more game time because he wasn’ t getting the job done,they keep playing him against Fiji and Japan etc hoping he would show something but he didn’t.
So we are where we are with 2 shit fucking options.
And they may have known what they had in the other options playing them against Fiji and Japan would have shown fuck all.
So I call BS on that as well.McKenzie showed plenty: for once we've looked like we have the ability to beat a rush defence, and have a ten who can pass and put other players into space. Mistakes? Sure, but he was also the source of about 90% of the good things we did.
What actually happened as far as results go is that the team didn't get the job done in the last 20. Oh except for the 2nd Bledisloe, where McKenzie came on.
That's shit coaching, shit use of the bench, and shit on-field leadership, but somehow I don't expect you to call the two Scotts 2 shit fucking options.Nope they are not kicking out on the full and throwing dumb erratic passes when the last pass would have yielded tries or crabbing across field running our outsides out of space,that is on D Mac.
Are you trying to tell me 90% of all the good things we have done this year are down to D Mac lol.Then just play him we don't need the other 22.90% in terms of creativity in the backs yep. Who else has created anything? Jordie? Rieko?
All of the negatives you list are worse with Barrett, but you'd have to add numerous instances of kicking the ball away.What about the shit passing or are you blinded by that I would say 90% of the shit stuff in the backline is down to D Mac.
Who is blinded? He has put runners into space all year with excellent passing skills. He has muffed a couple of miracle balls recently when AB's were not under scoreboard pressure.
It would be interesting to know what the game plan has been and whether he is playing to instruction a lot. -
@kpkanz said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
Dmac has been great all year and pretty much responsible for 90% of any of our good attacking play.
For the first time in years we were getting AROUND the rush defense that we have struggled with since 2017.
The Japan game is an anomaly. No surprise he has his shittest game all year the week they had clearly told him Beauden would be preferred for the England game.
I can only hope he gets the 10 jersey back for Ireland/France because I've already seen how Beauden runs our attack against these northern teams for half a decade now. (hint: not good)
I don’t get it either.
He has been responsible for a huge amount of or best moments.
He is by far the best goalkicker we have and going into what is like to be a crucial part of the next 3 weeks.
The style of rugby the coaches have us playing has looked very good at times but it is a pretty un test like. Approach and it’s the first time I have seen All Black team totally gassed early in 2nd half’s. DMAC seems to be touching the ball a huge amount as everything is running through him so it’s only natural that mistakes will increase.
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Perhaps this is the first intelligent coaching from Razor.
NZ beat England twice with DMac starting but have fallen off the pace in most of the second halves this season.
BB went ok starting against Australia
Perhaps Razor is thinking that for England BB can keep NZ in contention when the game is tighter before unleashing DMac once the game opens up
If NZ score in the second half and pull away from England to record a win with a comfortable margin then surely everyone in NZ will be happy
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@MiketheSnow said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
Perhaps this is the first intelligent coaching from Razor.
NZ beat England twice with DMac starting but have fallen off the pace in most of the second halves this season.
BB went ok starting against Australia
Perhaps Razor is thinking that for England BB can keep NZ in contention when the game is tighter before unleashing DMac once the game opens up
If NZ score in the second half and pull away from England to record a win with a comfortable margin then surely everyone in NZ will be happy
Yeah, I have thought that as well and the bench is looking very strong with lots of impact.
Intelligent? Maybe, we will see if that is the case come 4pm on Saturday.
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@nostrildamus said in McKenzie, Mo'unga etc:
I grudgingly admit BB played really well in that game off the bench against England
Go watch it again.
He did some bloody good things including running around fatties, but it glossed over some really dodgy errors - putting the ball out on the full, etc. He was good enough to create some magic - but also did some shit
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In my opinion, DMac and Beauden have similar qualities that they bring to the team. Both are capable of producing highlights that can spark a game but will then follow it up with a dropped ball or bad pass or missed kick. It comes down to who can be trusted more that week against that opposition and I think that these two need to have the jersey up for grabs week in week out so that they compete and be more disciplined in their play and tidying up the errors from their game. Competition is healthy and telling DMac that he is first choice for the entire year because Beauden isn't gonna make the next world cup won't be as effective as making him earn it.
