All Blacks 2024
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8.Have you noticed the style of loose forward pack Razor has generally played for the Crusaders?
Biggest guy has generally been Grace if available and he's not exactly big.
It's basically being replicated with the ABs. That's probably why everyone apart from Finau is basically a 7.
I'm happy for Savea to be tried at 7 or the bench but don't see it happening when he's vice captain and their mindset around the bench.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Ioane was close to man of the match in Ireland 3.
That doesn't change the consistently convincing argument. Personally I think Ioane is another who suffered from the Cane/Savea combination. Akira is more of a wrestler (like Savea), and Cane is not a ball runner at all.
I think they preferred Frizzell because as a counterpoint he runs into contact, rather than going in soft and then driving the legs / wrestling his way forward like Savea and Ioane.
Frizzel was the epitome of inconsistency himself of course. -
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean Which is why he was and should always have been a 7 - but couldn't play there because we locked Cane in as captain.
What I don't get is why they aren't keen on reversing Foster's stupid decision and putting him back there - especially when we have 2 guys banging the door down at 8.Have you noticed the style of loose forward pack Razor has generally played for the Crusaders?
Biggest guy has generally been Grace if available and he's not exactly big.
It's basically being replicated with the ABs. That's probably why everyone apart from Finau is basically a 7.
I'm happy for Savea to be tried at 7 or the bench but don't see it happening when he's vice captain and their mindset around the bench.
Hmmm, maybe. Had Read for the first few years. Whetu Douglas. Matera in 2022 a reasonably sized loosie.
Dominic Gardiner, Grace and Blackadder are in the medium category to me - all just a bit bigger than Cane, Dalton, Jacobson, Savea, Sititi.The Finau and no other similar player selection in the squad has always been a strange one for me.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 All those games counted.
He got dished a pretty bogus yellow card after 90 seconds, which probably hampered him a bit.
Another way of describing it would be an avoidable yellow card and then did fuck all when he got back on the field.....
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
I'll honestly be surprised if Sotutu makes the AB XV which is sad.
I think Haig has potential but anyone of Parker, Stodart, Finau, Ah Kuoi, Delaney, or Suafoa have just as much potential.
A lot may come down to who is selecting the team. Is it Donk, or TWM or a combo?
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@Frank said in All Blacks 2024:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2024:
. I liked what Tosi brought, but I think those big NH tests come too soon for him, and his weakness in the scrum could be exposed.
Not against England's shit scrummaging bench props.
Are Ireland's reserve props good at scrummaging?Ever heard of a fella named Cian Healey?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2024:
@voodoo said in All Blacks 2024:
The turnovers need to be taken in context - he attempts a STACK of them every game - at the expense of putting in a dominant tackle or counter-rucking. I think they cost us significantly on a net/net basis. I would so much rather he put in 3-4 hard shoulders into some prick running at us.
Similar story with his ball running. He hangs off cleaning rucks to be in position to hit the ball up. There's a trade off.
And mauls.
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What's being missed a bit amongst the loose forward discussion is that Robertson has pretty explicitly said he basically sees no difference between the roles of a 6 and the roles of an 8 - they're interchangeable except when occasionally attacking off the back of a scrum.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
What's being missed a bit amongst the loose forward discussion is that Robertson has pretty explicitly said he basically sees no difference between the roles of a 6 and the roles of an 8 - they're interchangeable except when occasionally attacking off the back of a scrum.
He said exactly that in the post-match interview following Bledisloe 2. Even offered England as an example of the other teams doing the same thing.
So either my thinking is wrong in that the roles in modern rugby are still quite different, or he is wrong. And as proof I'll offer the example that for some reason they never name Cane as 8 and Ardie as 6...
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2024:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
What's being missed a bit amongst the loose forward discussion is that Robertson has pretty explicitly said he basically sees no difference between the roles of a 6 and the roles of an 8 - they're interchangeable except when occasionally attacking off the back of a scrum.
He said exactly that in the post-match interview following Bledisloe 2. Even offered England as an example of the other teams doing the same thing.
So either my thinking is wrong in that the roles in modern rugby are still quite different, or he is wrong. And as proof I'll offer the example that for some reason they never name Cane as 8 and Ardie as 6...
I think 7 is still distinguishable from the other two?
But no reason to change Savea when he's been playing 8 and does well off the back of the scrum. I think it more means that Hoskins Sotutu, for example, isn't missing out due to his lack of versatility.
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks 2024:
What's being missed a bit amongst the loose forward discussion is that Robertson has pretty explicitly said he basically sees no difference between the roles of a 6 and the roles of an 8 - they're interchangeable except when occasionally attacking off the back of a scrum.
I think people do get overly focussed on numbers. You want a jackler, a cleaner, a genuine lineout option, a power runner and a hard shouldered tackler.
On attacking scrums power runner packs at 8. On defensive scrums tackler at blindside. Usually jackler and tackler are separate so jackler at open side on opp scrums. Also wild card of linking/passing loosie, who comes off own scrum off open side or back.
We seem to be short a hard tackling lineout option if Finau excluded. -
@pakman said in All Blacks 2024:
Hoss gives you lineout, linking and some jackling. Wallace adds power running and some jackling. LJ gives you shoulder and some jackling. That combo only needs a cleaner.
Thought crossed my mind that TWM might have a concern about Paps and breakdown. Paps and Niggles was fine but maybe felt Paps and Wallace might not work so well.
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@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@MajorRage said in All Blacks 2024:
Granted, I've only seen the highlights on the weekend
Fuck I love this sort of analysis
Top Ferning 
Means I only missed about 20 mins of in ball play the entire RC ā¦
Feel free to let me know what you disagree with, happy to debate and review where Iām wrong ā¦.
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@MajorRage said in All Blacks 2024:
@Machpants said in All Blacks 2024:
@MajorRage said in All Blacks 2024:
Granted, I've only seen the highlights on the weekend
Fuck I love this sort of analysis
Top Ferning Means I only missed about 20 mins of in ball play the entire RC ā¦
Feel free to let me know what you disagree with, happy to debate and review where Iām wrong ā¦.
Nah your points are valid, just the ' I only watched the highlights but...' are common on teh interwebs, normally followed by rubbish. Your points based on the entire series not just that match
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Been having a bit of a think on our poor last quarters - which have been extremely thinly papered over by bringing a fresh McKenzie and Ratima on against tiring Wallabies.
The reasons I see:
The lack of game-time the bench guys have had.
The timing of bringing the bench on.
The bench positional mix.
The lack of calm old heads.
Mariner's point about asking McKenzie to make absolutely all of our play and his fatigue.Firstly it's clear that we're trying to play fast. I like that approach, as it suits the way people are brought up playing the game in NZ, and due to that we are always more likely to produce the cattle appropriate for it. We might sometimes look on in envy at successful teams playing more conservative rugby, but I don't think we can consistently be successful trying to replicate it. If you were to look at our first half performances in the RC, we're looking pretty sharp against fresh defences which is a big positive for the game plan, and a big tick for McKenzie's ability to find gaps.
To deal with McKenzie's fatigue, which could be leading to our losing a bit of direction late in games, there are a few options: DM gets fitter or manages his efforts better; he gets more help from other players; or he gets subbed. I think it's very clear from BB's run at 10 that there is nobody in NZ right now who is ready to slot in for DM and keep the same game plan going - so if you sub him, it means a complete change of game plan. That's no small thing, but it is do-able if it is well planned and you bring all the subs on together who have trained to play that different style - e.g. bring on the big boys and Plummer and play narrow Blues 2024 rugby. The easier option would be for DM to get more support, which I guess is where the BB at fullback 2-playmakers attempts come from - not working because BB is not working. WJ isn't that style of fullback, but is our best fullback - so I can't see DM getting help from 15. At 12 JB doesn't seem to be that guy (yet at least), and ALB a little bit but not really. Roigard may be able to provide the help required as he has a bit more of the playmaker 9 about him, but who knows how he will come back from injury. This is the most difficult problem to solve.
The lack of calm old heads. Well we tried old heads in bringing on TJ and BB from the bench, and it was shit because they're not calm guys. You can't do much about losing the likes of Retallick/Whitelock/Smith, but a Savea (or even Cane if you're playing narrow) might help. Otherwise it's more about temperament and leadership from the other guys on the field than experience on the bench.
Bench positional mix. Specialist wingers, jesus christ. no, no, no. We're playing a fast game and the guys getting fatigued are the forwards and 9 & 10. Particularly egregious when most of our backline play multiple positions. We need to look at the best mix to get to a 6-2 split asap as per South Africa.
Bench timing: sadly again we can learn from the Saffas here. This has been a bit of a mess. Robertson used them pretty randomly, then lost faith with the bench and in subsequent games left fatties on too long or moved experienced guys he trusted there. The ABs must have a shitload of data which shows when guys are slowing down and need to be replaced, and optimising that and bringing players on together to retain combinations does not strike me as very complicated.
Bench game time: I'm becoming a bit of a broken record on this (amongst other things), but guys like Aumua are good footy players, not playing well. If you leave him on the bench playing a few minutes each week and then ask him to throw pressure lineouts, what do you expect? Extra nerves combined with a lack of match practice = fuck ups. Again, learn from the Boks: both of their hookers get good minutes.
Hopefully Robertson has actually been thinking about some of this and isn't just sitting there pleased that the media aren't hassling him on the subject anymore because he swapped his starters onto the bench and we performed better in the last quarter. If we can solve it, it would go a long way to making us harder to beat.
