NZ First Five Crisis
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Seems most people are happier with DMac than I am, and are also keen to see Plummer to get a crack. I still maintain that neither of them are close to that superstar level though, so my question remains who is the next star? Have they debuted at First Class level yet?
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
I said pretty quick
Yes, those guys listed would all be quicker I’d imagine….
But you mentioned physical so I instantly defaulted to the Fox/Merhts/O’Gara type 10 in my head.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well but isn't a great playmaker by any stretch.
Aside from the missed kicks at goal, McKenzie was fine in that second match. He didn't look any worse than Mo'unga has previously looked against the Springboks.
Though Mo'unga was not on the same level as a 10 as Cruden, Carter etc (and, frankly, neither was Barrett), so that doesn't really counter your overall point.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
When has Mo'unga ever taken a test against a big opponent by the scruff of the neck?
Also he's reliant on pace, McKenzie can actually pass as well as run. -
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
No, you're 100% right. He was really quite slow, medium-sized, and a pussy.
My mentally limited comment was more a reference to choking than rugby brain. -
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
you need a low error rate. Making consistently good decisions - SexBomb as well. Wouldn't mind seeing how Plummer's game goes there too - not pretending he's a world beater, but the Blues style seems to map pretty well to Tests
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It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
Does that mean that every Springbok who's won back-to-back WCs is underrated...?
I'm not suggesting the basics aren't important, but he's very much a cog in the Springboks machine.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
What do you suggest they do to improve the exits? I think they are incredibly hamstrung in this department from a lack of a consistently accurate long punter.
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@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
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i must be remembering the SA tests differently. DMac repeatedly exited from deep in our own end to up by halfway with minimum fuss. He also brought the wipers back. Most of the shit ones were from the bloke in 15.
A bigger problem with our "exits" is we rely on kicks from 9, which as a nation we aren't that good at. And then occasionally one of our brains trust will try a fucking chip kick. Throw in our super lazy kick chase, and if we don't put it out, we are immediately under pressure again.
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@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Defence is a massive issue, particularly in Tests.
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@mariner4life said in NZ First Five Crisis:
. Throw in our super lazy kick chase,
not just lazy, feels very disorganised. A good chase can turn an average kick into a bloody good one. It pressures people. We don't do it well.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Dan54 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
Defence is a massive issue, particularly in Tests.
Yep, the last thing we need in our current backline is a mercurial turnstile at 15.
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@mariner4life said in NZ First Five Crisis:
i must be remembering the SA tests differently. DMac repeatedly exited from deep in our own end to up by halfway with minimum fuss. He also brought the wipers back. Most of the shit ones were from the bloke in 15.
A bigger problem with our "exits" is we rely on kicks from 9, which as a nation we aren't that good at. And then occasionally one of our brains trust will try a fucking chip kick. Throw in our super lazy kick chase, and if we don't put it out, we are immediately under pressure again.
I didn't see the first game after finding out the result in the morning, and I get confused with South African locations, but am I right in thinking that game was at altitude? That could explain DMac's distance there. As for the second test, DMac's distance seemed about normal for him.
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I think DMac is the best we have, his quick feet and hands at least give us a little bit of a counter against the rush defence. Put anyone else in and it would only be worse.
You could criticsie his decision making and error rate and that's fair but I would say a lot of that is him tryng to pull a rabbit out of the hat because his forwards aren't giving him a platform or go-forward ball to work off.
Simply put I think anyone less nimble than DMac would simply get hammered behind the advantage line and we'd be even worse off.
Our forward pack need to find some go-forward and fast, otherwise all we have left is frantic scrambling trying to make something out of very little.
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One thing I think everyone needs to note is that Dmac is doing this with a revolving door at halfback. There is bugger all consistency at the key positions he is in constant communication with. 9 and 15. This plays a huge role in any 10’s game simply because how different halfbacks and fullbacks can be. There’s needs to be consistency. He’s already had 3 different fullbacks in 7 tests so far this year as well as the rotating 9 jersey.
What Mounga had the benefit of was Aaron Smith at 9 in more for less every single test and he knew what he was going to get. Dmac has not had this luxury and that it is incredibly important to how a 10 plays. Shit, even DC in 2015 said how important it was to have Smith as his 9 at that World Cup and it bought him that extra split second. Smith loss isn’t talked about enough about how massive of a loss he is to the squad.
Dmac will improve with time in the saddle, but more importantly more consistent time with those around him in key positions. At the moment, those 2 are only Jordie Barrett and Rieko and they aren’t exactly lighting it up at the moment.
I strongly believe this is a major factor when it comes to Dmacs up and down play from week to week. Hopefully Ratima is left at 9 so can carry on building from that Chiefs combination that worked so well.
