NZ First Five Crisis
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@canefan Some time between the 2015 World Cup and the 2017 Lions series, Steve Hansen and Steve Tew decided our DNA was to be the Great Entertainers and we have had an unbalanced game plan and set of selection criteria even since.
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
It's a little unfair to not point out that he was mentally limited too.
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@reprobate said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
It's a little unfair to not point out that he was mentally limited too.
he was a fucking rugby genius at times. Fair play to him, he implemented the gameplan that took them to number 1 in the world.
Still filth though, dropping the elbow into Beaudy in Dublin. Never forget!
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
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@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
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Seems most people are happier with DMac than I am, and are also keen to see Plummer to get a crack. I still maintain that neither of them are close to that superstar level though, so my question remains who is the next star? Have they debuted at First Class level yet?
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
I said pretty quick
Yes, those guys listed would all be quicker I’d imagine….
But you mentioned physical so I instantly defaulted to the Fox/Merhts/O’Gara type 10 in my head.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
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@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well but isn't a great playmaker by any stretch.
Aside from the missed kicks at goal, McKenzie was fine in that second match. He didn't look any worse than Mo'unga has previously looked against the Springboks.
Though Mo'unga was not on the same level as a 10 as Cruden, Carter etc (and, frankly, neither was Barrett), so that doesn't really counter your overall point.
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@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
When has Mo'unga ever taken a test against a big opponent by the scruff of the neck?
Also he's reliant on pace, McKenzie can actually pass as well as run. -
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@MN5 said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
If Grant Fox were an emerging NZ First Five today, he'd end up playing international Rugby in Irish Green.
was going to point to SexBomb as an example of a physically limited but very effective Test 10.
How so ? Big, strong, pretty quick and abrasive ?
Certainly more physical than most 10s.
You'd put him behind Carter, Cruden, Mo'unga, DMac in terms of physical gifts though - I don't think he was quick - but really smart rugby brain and played the quarterback role brilliantly.
HOnest question: is my recollection that wrong? I did not think he had much going for him physically
No, you're 100% right. He was really quite slow, medium-sized, and a pussy.
My mentally limited comment was more a reference to choking than rugby brain. -
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
you need a low error rate. Making consistently good decisions - SexBomb as well. Wouldn't mind seeing how Plummer's game goes there too - not pretending he's a world beater, but the Blues style seems to map pretty well to Tests
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It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@Mr-Fish said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@nzzp said in NZ First Five Crisis:
@frugby said in NZ First Five Crisis:
neither of them are close to that superstar level though
hah! Just set the bar at GOAT level please!
They are not close to that; DMac probably has the potential with his speed and long passing game ... but they can do a job for the ABs.
Maybe it is reactionary, but that loss in Cape Town felt big for McKenzie's ABs career. I'd expect him to hold onto the jersey for now, so he has a chance to work his way back, but he failed to take that game by the scruff of the neck, and I really just see Mo'unga coming back and taking the jersey.
I'm also unsure how well McKenzie will age as a player - quite heavily reliant on pace?
What I really mean, is who is our next World Class 10, the next ABs 10 who is in the best in the world category? Maybe I am harsh, but I think at best McKenzie is a Top 5 in the world. I have Pollard, Sacha, Russell and Smith (at the very least) ahead of him.
Smith??
Pollard is overrated as a 10 - does the basics very well
Given Pollard has won back-to-back World Cups I would say he is underrated and doing the basics very well is what being an international Number 10 is all about.
Does that mean that every Springbok who's won back-to-back WCs is underrated...?
I'm not suggesting the basics aren't important, but he's very much a cog in the Springboks machine.
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@sparky said in NZ First Five Crisis:
It beggars belief to me that the All Blacks' exit work has been consistently appalling since 2016. It's as though successive coaches don't see this basic, fundamental part of the game as terribly important.
Game after game after game poor exit work has put their sides under needless pressure.
What do you suggest they do to improve the exits? I think they are incredibly hamstrung in this department from a lack of a consistently accurate long punter.
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@Crazy-Horse Genuinely wonder if there not an argument for Stevenson to be looked at , although I have tended to never be a huge fan, I think hos boot etc would strengthen us at 15?
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i must be remembering the SA tests differently. DMac repeatedly exited from deep in our own end to up by halfway with minimum fuss. He also brought the wipers back. Most of the shit ones were from the bloke in 15.
A bigger problem with our "exits" is we rely on kicks from 9, which as a nation we aren't that good at. And then occasionally one of our brains trust will try a fucking chip kick. Throw in our super lazy kick chase, and if we don't put it out, we are immediately under pressure again.
