ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@Duluth said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
That's great if the national side is run by Henry, Smith & Hansen and they are the ones setting the blueprint.
What happens when the style of play needs an overhaul. How slow is that process?
Very slow.
That was something I commented on over the past few years how there didnt seem to be the collaboration or direction from the top, identifying issues and addressing them form the higher level.
Back in the day, Cron was doing sessions with all NPC provinces to try and upskill our forwards, sure it was all the same blueprint, but it set us in good stead, problem was, this seemed to fade and other teams caught up and we do not seem to be doing anthing to address the issues and develop players where we have gaps or underlying weaknesses.
Not saying above is the answer, just that it was an approach, that worked for a good period of time, but it would seem we rested on our laurels and now almost a decade later we are reaping the rewards of 'under-investment' in our grass roots, for want of a better phrase.
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@Duluth said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
I think our coaching is too narrow
how many Super rugby games did Leon MacDonald, Mark Hammett, Todd Blackadder and Aaron Mauger get between them for how many Super titles?
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@Duluth said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
tldr for the above post:
I don't think we have a player quality problem. I think our coaching is too narrow
yeah, had similar thoughts myself over the last few years, we might only really produce 5-6 10's (for example) each year....and at least 4 of them will play very similar...and because the top players have a relatively short season to shine theyre trying to play exactly like the current AB's...so its become a little echo chamber
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@Duluth said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
tldr for the above post:
I don't think we have a player quality problem. I think our coaching is too narrow
You would think Vern Cotter's success would be a light bulb moment but this is NZR we are talking about....
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@Duluth said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
tldr for the above post:
I don't think we have a player quality problem. I think our coaching is too narrow
And when we have gone large on bringing overseas based coaches home, we have generally failed wiht our acquisitions (e.g., Mooar) and not been able to get the real quality candidates (e.g., until recently, Joseph, and of course Brown).
You look at what Cotter has done with the Blues and it makes you wonder about the general quality of Super coaching itself. McMillan is starting to get there, the Canes now appear to have quality, the Crusaders do not, and the Highlanders should be much better this year.
Razor hasn't really ever had to face up against absolute best quality coaching teams - across the board - before and I think that is a crucial aspect as well. I'm not sure we can address that unless we are really prepared to start spending a lot on coaches. I know Jono was back for a bit, but NZ didn't have a quality role (and I assume payment) to prevent him from leaving for Lyon.
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@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
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@Duluth said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
You need to innovate and find the style which suits your players’ bodies & brains which also breaks down the other teams’ defences regularly
One of the strengths of SR has become a weakness. Generally all the NZ sides play a very similar pattern and there is top down involvement from NZR to all the sides
This is an interesting one eh - I tend to agree that it is too homogenous, though there are some differences. The highlanders under Joseph played quite a different game to others; the blues this year; the chiefs under Rennie.
The differences are nowhere near as stark as say the end of the amateur era where you had e.g. Otago pretty much playing touch vs the totally forward oriented Waikato. -
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@sparky said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@antipodean And yet, they lose out on earnings that they could make playing international rugby for their home country if they do sign with a European club. No wonder James Lowe and Bundee Aki opted to play for Ireland and Uini Antonio opted to play for France. That's three world-class talents the NZR position lost right there. They won't be the last.
The players mentioned were in the Nz system. James Lowe may have become an AB at some point and Ali was behind Nonu, Williams and Crotty and the all Blacks had unbelievable depth and one of their best evert squads. So you can understand some people leaving as they didn’t see a pathway to the ABs at that point.
Not everything is black and white and they may not have become the players they have without going to a new enviroment and playing in Ireland.
The Nz policy has worked for a long time and it has rarely been an issue for NZ as they have mostly been able to keep the players they wanted to keep.
Of course things evolve and perhaps now is the time to look at changing it. I am on record as wanting to allow a couple of squad positions open to overseas players if needed.
If the NZR business plan has one weakness, it is that the whole thing is dependant on the All Blacks continuing to be the All Blacks i.e being the best, winning trophies and keeping that mystique about them.
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
Excellent post,. you are 100% correct.
NZR need to see the wood for the trees.
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@DaGrubster makes a great point.
I find it hilarious that NZR want to continue to confine Super Rugby a side-show until the 'real rugby' begins.
It's effectively a warm-up comp for our All Black players because it's such a short comp and we refuse to increase the number of games because we want to 'save' the players for the All Blacks.
The strategy's all well and good if All Blacks are continuing to be the pinnacle of world rugby but that's not the case and it hasn't been for 8 years - additionally it's a fact the All Blacks and Wallabies results have gotten progressively worse since the length of Super Rugby was shortened (2020-2024). So much for this strategy of careful player management right?
Make Super Rugby a proper full-season comp, can't just put all your eggs in the basket of a declining All Blacks side - which is now only the 3rd or 4th best side in the world.
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@Duluth said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
tldr for the above post:
I don't think we have a player quality problem. I think our coaching is too narrow
Our ABs coaching would appear to be too narrow. The Canes and Blues played a distinctly more forward based direct game, and the ABs don't seem to have taken any of that on board
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@Higgins said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
No, I have not been watching the Welsh teams.
But generally Nth Hemisphere rugby has improved across the board in the last 4 years (Welsh clubs notwithstanding)
It also means the Sa sides get reffed regularly by all the NH refs during club rugby. That in itself is an advantage.
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@DaGrubster The URC improved a lot since we joined. Our provincial or franchise way of contracting left a lot of quality players at the Cheetahs/Griquas/Pumas/Boland in the cold. The Ospreys have a contract with the Cheetahs, Stormers with Griquas, Bulls with Boland, Sharks with Pumas exchanging players between CC and URC competitions. So you will get also a lot of SA players playing all over the URC franchises. Thinus de Beer the perfect example. So playing in the URC is a win win situation not only for South Africa but also for the other countries. So you can expect a lot of Saffers in future playing for Wales, Scotland, Italy and Ireland if they stay long enough at that clubs. We also see some experience players like Etsebeth, Kolisi, Koch, Kitshoff, ext returning to SA franchises.
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@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Higgins said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
No, I have not been watching the Welsh teams.
But generally Nth Hemisphere rugby has improved across the board in the last 4 years (Welsh clubs notwithstanding)
It also means the Sa sides get reffed regularly by all the NH refs during club rugby. That in itself is an advantage.
Wales has good players playing outside of Wales who don't meet the Gatland Law criteria.
They've left because there's very little money in Welsh domestic rugby.
Liam Williams is playing in Japan and is loving the fact that his body isn't getting busted up week in week out. He performed really well for Wales over the Summer so hasn't lost form going to Japan.
In the modern game, 4 URC sides is too much to sustain in Wales.
Especially as the geographic spread is 63 miles / 101km
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@MiketheSnow How many is sustainable? Because 3 sides would really limit selection options.
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@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
No doubt some others have already responded to this - but there was nothing we could do to keep the Saffas in Super. They had been threatening for years to go, and being opportunists used a pandemic as their excuse. WTF could NZ rugby have done to stop that?
It also took the body that's supposed to look after rugby around the world to completely look the other way and allow what was a balance between the NH and the SH to be completely fucked.
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@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
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@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
How do we know they never tried? As Nepia days, IIRC the saffas were always in the news making noises about leaving
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@canefan said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
How do we know they never tried?
we don't know, but they certainly didn't come out and say 'we're gutted they're leaving'. So I'd infer they didn't seem to put much effort in.
Also, given the sheer incompetence of NZR governance around that time I wouldn't be surprised by anything any more
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Windows97 I am just trying to paint the Springboks picture. Sorry if it upset you.
Didn't upset me in the slightest, I genuinely think it's an interesting point and can see the logic behind it.
