ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?
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@Duluth said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
tldr for the above post:
I don't think we have a player quality problem. I think our coaching is too narrow
Our ABs coaching would appear to be too narrow. The Canes and Blues played a distinctly more forward based direct game, and the ABs don't seem to have taken any of that on board
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@Higgins said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
No, I have not been watching the Welsh teams.
But generally Nth Hemisphere rugby has improved across the board in the last 4 years (Welsh clubs notwithstanding)
It also means the Sa sides get reffed regularly by all the NH refs during club rugby. That in itself is an advantage.
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@DaGrubster The URC improved a lot since we joined. Our provincial or franchise way of contracting left a lot of quality players at the Cheetahs/Griquas/Pumas/Boland in the cold. The Ospreys have a contract with the Cheetahs, Stormers with Griquas, Bulls with Boland, Sharks with Pumas exchanging players between CC and URC competitions. So you will get also a lot of SA players playing all over the URC franchises. Thinus de Beer the perfect example. So playing in the URC is a win win situation not only for South Africa but also for the other countries. So you can expect a lot of Saffers in future playing for Wales, Scotland, Italy and Ireland if they stay long enough at that clubs. We also see some experience players like Etsebeth, Kolisi, Koch, Kitshoff, ext returning to SA franchises.
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@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Higgins said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
Agreed, the herald is of the opinion that NZR saw the opportunity to ‘own super rugby’ so they had a shiny product to entice private equity.
While super rugby across the 5 nations wasn’t possible during Covid, there is no reason why we couldn’t have agreed with partners that we all do our own thing until we can reconvene when it is possible to do so.
SA got lucky as they had a comp to go to that was improving in quality all the time and super shat the bed as Aus teams quality fell of a cliff at the same time.
You obviously have not been watching the Welsh teams very closely. They are generally dire with their standard being miles below what us old guys fondly remember Welsh teams being like during the days of proper tours. Also remembering Sth African teams were mostly mid table in Super Rugby but, with the exception of the Lions, they are up with the front runners in United Championship alongside Leinster and Munster.
No, I have not been watching the Welsh teams.
But generally Nth Hemisphere rugby has improved across the board in the last 4 years (Welsh clubs notwithstanding)
It also means the Sa sides get reffed regularly by all the NH refs during club rugby. That in itself is an advantage.
Wales has good players playing outside of Wales who don't meet the Gatland Law criteria.
They've left because there's very little money in Welsh domestic rugby.
Liam Williams is playing in Japan and is loving the fact that his body isn't getting busted up week in week out. He performed really well for Wales over the Summer so hasn't lost form going to Japan.
In the modern game, 4 URC sides is too much to sustain in Wales.
Especially as the geographic spread is 63 miles / 101km
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@MiketheSnow How many is sustainable? Because 3 sides would really limit selection options.
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@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
Which is why they need to ensure that they have the best AB team they can put out and I think we have got to the point where some overseas players would improve our squad.
We've let Super run down to the point where it isn't as good at preparing players for Tests.
I know I'm in a minority, but for rugby reasons NZR should have fought tooth and nail to keep SA in Super. The utter arrogance of thinking they could build their own comp, drag in the 'good' Aussie sides without national body support is astonishing. It's been so short sighted it is a colossal failure.
No doubt some others have already responded to this - but there was nothing we could do to keep the Saffas in Super. They had been threatening for years to go, and being opportunists used a pandemic as their excuse. WTF could NZ rugby have done to stop that?
It also took the body that's supposed to look after rugby around the world to completely look the other way and allow what was a balance between the NH and the SH to be completely fucked.
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@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
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@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
How do we know they never tried? As Nepia days, IIRC the saffas were always in the news making noises about leaving
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@canefan said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
How do we know they never tried?
we don't know, but they certainly didn't come out and say 'we're gutted they're leaving'. So I'd infer they didn't seem to put much effort in.
Also, given the sheer incompetence of NZR governance around that time I wouldn't be surprised by anything any more
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Windows97 I am just trying to paint the Springboks picture. Sorry if it upset you.
Didn't upset me in the slightest, I genuinely think it's an interesting point and can see the logic behind it.
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@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow How many is sustainable? Because 3 sides would really limit selection options.
You’d have to realistically look at 3
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@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
We don't know if NZR tried, but realistically what do you think could have been done? Let's not forget that Saffas already had teams playing in the north, then they used the pandemic to make the break completely.
It completely baffles me how so many pin the blame on NZR for this when the Saffas used a worldwide tragedy to make a move (they'd already partially made) they'd been threatening to make for at least 20 years.
We're all disappointed, but the fact is if the Saffas want to be in Super Rugby they will be, but they're not, and that's on them.
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@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
We don't know if NZR tried, but realistically what do you think could have been done? Let's not forget that Saffas already had teams playing in the north, then they used the pandemic to make the break completely.
It completely baffles me how so many pin the blame on NZR for this when the Saffas used a worldwide tragedy to make a move (they'd already partially made) they'd been threatening to make for at least 20 years.
We're all disappointed, but the fact is if the Saffas want to be in Super Rugby they will be, but they're not, and that's on them.
Very succinct mate 👍
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@Nepia said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@nzzp said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@Nepia you're quite possibly right.
But I don't think we even tried. I think we thought we could set up a Super comp locally that 'we' (NZR) controlled, and weren't sad to see the Saffers go.
I'm disappointed on many levels - they brought all the money, and also a really different physical test. Rapid expansion of Super diluted talent and quality and we really haven't recovered from that.
We don't know if NZR tried, but realistically what do you think could have been done? Let's not forget that Saffas already had teams playing in the north, then they used the pandemic to make the break completely.
It completely baffles me how so many pin the blame on NZR for this when the Saffas used a worldwide tragedy to make a move (they'd already partially made) they'd been threatening to make for at least 20 years.
We're all disappointed, but the fact is if the Saffas want to be in Super Rugby they will be, but they're not, and that's on them.
I don't think they're losing a second of sleep
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@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow How many is sustainable? Because 3 sides would really limit selection options.
You’d have to realistically look at 3
Could NZR look at a partnership for potential funding and NZ player pathways to prop up a 4th Welsh side?
We could provide players and coaching and reciprocal opportunities for some Welsh players?
It would allow us to have players experience European rugby and vice versa for Welsh players.
would there be too much opposition in Wales to this or do the Welsh clubs lose too much money for this to be a starter for NZR?
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@DaGrubster Didn't the NZRU look at something like this years back with Saracens? I think the South Africans took the initiative with Saracens (bankrolled by Johann Rupert)
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@DaGrubster said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@stodders said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
@MiketheSnow How many is sustainable? Because 3 sides would really limit selection options.
You’d have to realistically look at 3
Could NZR look at a partnership for potential funding and NZ player pathways to prop up a 4th Welsh side?
We could provide players and coaching and reciprocal opportunities for some Welsh players?
It would allow us to have players experience European rugby and vice versa for Welsh players.
would there be too much opposition in Wales to this or do the Welsh clubs lose too much money for this to be a starter for NZR?
Don't think either of us have the money for it
And it doesn't suit either of our narratives - homegrown talent playing at home
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@nostrildamus said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
If Brown could have been an assistant AB coach and no one bothered to contact him, I'm going to be a little upset
Maybe they have to change the way the appoint the coaches. They should appoint the head coach then advertise for the assistants with the head coach one of 3 on the recruitment panel, So the head coach has some input but is not the sole recruiter, kind of like what most businesses do. In terms of chain of command the head coach is their direct superior and supervisor but assistant coaches are ultimately answerable to the chief executive. Or alternatively the appoint a High performance manager who is in charge of the coaching to be the ultimate authority.
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@OomPB said in ABs picking overseas players - inevitable?:
The longer NZ wait to select overseas players, the further they will stay behind the Springboks.
The best Springboks play in Japan. The lighter responsibility and physical demand on their bodies give them a longer playing lifespan.
According to Damian de Ellende.
I think alot is being made of 'the way SA do things' when in reality they are enjoying so much current success because they have stumbled very fortuitously on a brilliant coach/manager (for their mentality, not sure he would be so successful anywhere else) in Rassie Erasmus.
Wait until Rassie moves along and we see 'the SA way of doing things' being equally successful under a new regime cause it was not before Rassie.
