All Blacks v Argentina II
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Do kiwis still really care to that extent about losses? I’m outside the country but I was a bit meh whatever. Lots of other countries have caught up and very, if any, players are the worlds best in their position. First year in charge I hardly expected Roberson to go undefeated. Argentina played pretty well but they still needed nz to gift them 2 tries of which the 2nd in particular was a minties moment kind of errors. In modern rugby the solution is not the “we need to be more hard” kind of fixes. All the best teams are up there in terms of physicality etc - simply being more hard rarely changes anything. This weeks test is much more interesting as we see how SR responds to a loss.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
What is fascinating is being able to see how Razor reacts to being under pressure
With his enormous success at the Crusaders he is in a unique position of not having been under the sort of pressure that the ABs are under right now/will be with 2 Bok games in South Africa.
How will he handle it.
yeah, thats the real test, if it is the players that arent doing what they have been training to do then we HAVE to see some of them on the block...if they keep failing but he doesnt cut anyone then we can assume it was actually his game plan of coaching that has failed
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Do kiwis still really care to that extent about losses? I’m outside the country but I was a bit meh whatever. Lots of other countries have caught up and very, if any, players are the worlds best in their position. First year in charge I hardly expected Roberson to go undefeated. Argentina played pretty well but they still needed nz to gift them 2 tries of which the 2nd in particular was a minties moment kind of errors. In modern rugby the solution is not the “we need to be more hard” kind of fixes. All the best teams are up there in terms of physicality etc - simply being more hard rarely changes anything. This weeks test is much more interesting as we see how SR responds to a loss.
Foster lowered our expectations. The loss was disappointing, but it's not like anyone's spitting on Razor's horse. He should send Foster a gift basket for that
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Do kiwis still really care to that extent about losses? I’m outside the country but I was a bit meh whatever. Lots of other countries have caught up and very, if any, players are the worlds best in their position. First year in charge I hardly expected Roberson to go undefeated. Argentina played pretty well but they still needed nz to gift them 2 tries of which the 2nd in particular was a minties moment kind of errors. In modern rugby the solution is not the “we need to be more hard” kind of fixes. All the best teams are up there in terms of physicality etc - simply being more hard rarely changes anything. This weeks test is much more interesting as we see how SR responds to a loss.
Not even former World player of the year Ardie Savea ?
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
What is fascinating is being able to see how Razor reacts to being under pressure
With his enormous success at the Crusaders he is in a unique position of not having been under the sort of pressure that the ABs are under right now/will be with 2 Bok games in South Africa.
How will he handle it.
yeah, thats the real test, if it is the players that arent doing what they have been training to do then we HAVE to see some of them on the block...if they keep failing but he doesnt cut anyone then we can assume it was actually his game plan of coaching that has failed
I'm more worried that due to the loss he resists making the changes he was likely going to. We'll see if he's as stubborn as Foster in a couple of days.
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@Bones im not expecting huge cuts this week except obvious ones like blackadder, if it is the players i would give the a rocket...and then if they fail again then start making changes
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones im not expecting huge cuts this week except obvious ones like blackadder, if it is the players i would give the a rocket...and then if they fail again then start making changes
Like mentioned a few times, I was expecting him to have a different 23 for the second test with an eye to rolling out the "top" team in SA. If Clarke, Finau, Proctor, Cane, etc aren't involved this week then I don't see the point in selecting them.
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@Bones fair points
i wonder if the loss changes things at all re rotating in people
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones fair points
i wonder if the loss changes things at all re rotating in people
That was my point?
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Well I think clearly the first step is to lynch the coach and deport half the players. Then bring back Foster.
Wow, we have sunk so low
No were never above that!
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Izzy from Gizzy has joined the chat.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's a matter of probability, it's simply inevitable to have a few shockers especially you've been coaching a group for 7 years.
Overall the guy lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
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@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Canes4life would be awesome to see him get a shot.
With some effective coaching he could be a weapon. Even though he improved a lot this year he still has that tendency to drift in and out of games. Hopefully he makes the most of this opportunity. I feel he has a higher ceiling than Tupou IMO, they just need to get him playing at his full potential.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Darren said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Couple stats for De Groot
Ran 5 times for 1 meter total
Made 10 tackles, missed 0So defensively went well, ball in hand not so great.
That's deceiving though. What phase was he taking the ball up is my first question? Do we really expect people to be simply walking through a modern Test defence when IMO it's three different things:
- Good cleans and quick ball which overwhelms the ability of the defence to restructure.
- Shaping so the defence overcompensates and leaves opportunities elsewhere to be exploited.
- Different lines and options so the defence is overwhelmed by decisions it has to make.
I didn't see a lot of that last weekend. What I did see was some aimless high kicking with ineffective chases. When we did do #1 we ended up making ground and scored.
My biggest headscratcher is seeing forwards go away from what's clearly working.
I don't necessarily disagree, but it's funny how this kind of argument comes out when we're talking about someone like EDG but not when other players are brought up. It's all stats, stats, stats until someone's favourite is on the line.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
The Crusaders have some shocking losses sprinkled through Razor's reign, but they were all forgotten as his teams had a very good habit of winning all of their finals, so he never really found out.
Perhaps you should just be thankful he actually won his finals games (17/17) and none of them fell under the shocking losses category (like Foster's all-time Super Rugby finals record 17-62 loss in 2009).
Razor coached 118 games in SR and you're telling us his team's not allowed a few shockers? In top level sport it's simply a matter of probability, like it's inevitable to have a few shockers especially if like Razor you are coaching the same club for 7 years.
btw he lost 16 games in total, 6 to Chiefs, 4 to Canes, 2 to Tahs, 2 to Landers, 1 to Blues, 1 to Drua.
I think in your eagerness to jump to Razor's defence you've missed the wider point
In a comp like Super Rugby you can afford to drop a few games as long as you come right at the business end
In test rugby every week is like a playoff.
Crusaders lost 4 games last year. Didn't matter.
If the ABs lose 4 games in a season there are alarm bells ringing (I know the season isn't the same number of games but you get the point).
I get the point, it doesn't seem a relevant criticism for Razor, he is after all the most successful coach in the history of NZ domestic rugby.
Seems a bit strange to expect every All Black coach to come into the job with a near perfect record at previous levels.
Henry for example had a more stacked Blues side than anything Razor had between 2017-23 but a lower winning record (80%) than Razor (84%) and lost finals games that Blues were favourites for.
