All Blacks vs Argentina I
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@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Now it maybe a case in that we simply don't have the cattle, and were doing the best with the players we have but if that's the case and we havn't got heavy ball runners were going to need some innovation and smart thinking to create space, somehow across the field.
Such a shame the South Africans are no longer in Super Rugby. It would have been very interesting to see how the Blues game this year went against them. That would have given us an indication on whether we have the cattle to play that way against the big boys.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Now it maybe a case in that we simply don't have the cattle, and were doing the best with the players we have but if that's the case and we havn't got heavy ball runners were going to need some innovation and smart thinking to create space, somehow across the field.
Such a shame the South Africans are no longer in Super Rugby. It would have been very interesting to see how the Blues game this year went against them. That would have given us an indication on whether we have the cattle to play that way against the big boys.
would it though? i mean there are only 3 of the Blues pack selected in this test. And that number doesn't really chance if everyone is available. 3 of 13. The selectors clearly don't see the way the Blues play, and the players pulling it off as anything special, or the way they want to play. All it would have shown is the Blues pack can play Blues footy against anyone.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Razor continues to have a massive horn for Blackadder. That's all very well but it's time for him to show everyone why now
it's not just Razor. The last group did everything they could to get him involved as well. I wish someone would tell us what we are missing.
Since you asked... and to post some documented stuff.
Ethan has a massive motor.
Best Bronco times:
McCaw: 4.30
Blackadder 4.32 (4.34 in the article below but there's a podcast where he says 4.32)
Papalií 4.45That's pretty good for a guy who's probably slightly bigger than Richie - and will be playing 6.
Watch: Cam Roigard impresses after blitzing All Blacks' pre-season Bronco
Rising star Cam Roigard has drawn level with playmaker Beauden Barrett in the pre-season Bronco.
His best position is 7 (especially at this level). If they picked him and Paps and said go to it, it would’ve been very understandable.
But, he’s picked at 6?
People keep saying that, but Ethan's preferred position in 6 (I have heard him say so) - it is where he has played most of his rugby.
I'd rather he was a bit faster if he's to play 7 and rather he was a bit taller if he's to play 6 - but, in a way, that's a function of Ardie being a short 8.
Ethan (and Luke Jacobson) are listed at the same height as Liam Messam, who went alright at 6 - but, of course he played in the same era as Read, who was an elite third lineout option.
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@mariner4life not to mention the lack of success the SA sides had at super level, regardless of thier now mythical forward dominance.
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our loose forward trio is just like when the Aussies wheeled out Smith and Waugh, except we've also added Davey Pocock.
Except, you know, Smith was elite, pocock was as good as anyone ever when the ball hit the floor. Also Waugh was there.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Now it maybe a case in that we simply don't have the cattle, and were doing the best with the players we have but if that's the case and we havn't got heavy ball runners were going to need some innovation and smart thinking to create space, somehow across the field.
Such a shame the South Africans are no longer in Super Rugby. It would have been very interesting to see how the Blues game this year went against them. That would have given us an indication on whether we have the cattle to play that way against the big boys.
would it though? i mean there are only 3 of the Blues pack selected in this test. And that number doesn't really chance if everyone is available. 3 of 13. The selectors clearly don't see the way the Blues play, and the players pulling it off as anything special, or the way they want to play. All it would have shown is the Blues pack can play Blues footy against anyone.
Don't know, but when they played the SA sides NZ sides tended to run them around didn't they? And that was relatively successful at that level, perhaps leading to a belief that the All Blacks could do the same. I guess what I am getting at, if the Blues could have beaten up the evil South Aficans with their game it may have given the AB selectors something different to think about.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Windows97 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Now it maybe a case in that we simply don't have the cattle, and were doing the best with the players we have but if that's the case and we havn't got heavy ball runners were going to need some innovation and smart thinking to create space, somehow across the field.
Such a shame the South Africans are no longer in Super Rugby. It would have been very interesting to see how the Blues game this year went against them. That would have given us an indication on whether we have the cattle to play that way against the big boys.
Yeah I hear you there, it's been a disadvantage to us not having SA in super as it's a hard gauge to see where our forwards are through the season until we hit the international window and then find out they struggle with the additional physicality.
Sure SA were more vunerable to the wide and fast paced expansive game, but you could at least get a look at how well the tight 5 could match up against a more physical team.
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@mariner4life Yeah - we're a bit unbalanced in the same way we were with Jerry, Richie and Rodders. It was remarkable how our hookers' lineout throwing improved when we graduated to Kaino, McCaw and Read.
The template has really been laid down with those three - and Alan Whetton, Michael Jones and Buck/Zinny - and even earlier, I think, by Kel Tremain, Waka Nathan and BJ Lochore.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
f the Blues could have beaten up the evil South Aficans with their game it may have given the AB selectors something different to think about.
forget the Blues, you'd see how forwards went against big units - getting weaknesses exposed early is really important.
Super is a pale shadow of its former self and used to prepare players for the physicality of test rugby. Not any more
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not sold out yet? dont know if this has changed much since yesterday
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
our loose forward trio is just like when the Aussies wheeled out Smith and Waugh, except we've also added Davey Pocock.
Except, you know, Smith was elite, pocock was as good as anyone ever when the ball hit the floor. Also Waugh was there.
It actually reminds me of tours back in the 80s/90s, where in every provincial game the tourists would come up against yet another very good hard tackling 7... none of whom were ever selected for the all blacks, because they're not exactly michael fucking jones, are they?
Now here we are, selecting not one, but all of them.
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you only have to go back to 2005 where the poor old Lions were up against the best depth in any position i have ever seen in NZ rugby in every single game.
Not many caps between them (for NZ) because the 7 shirt belonged to one man and one man alone.
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@reprobate A lot of them probably did though. A flick through All Blacks 900-1000 throws up the following loose forwards:
Kevin Schuler, Mark Carter, Richard Turner, Aaron Pene, Jamie Joseph, Blair Larsen, Pat Lam, Dallas Seymour, Glenn Taylor, Liam Barry, John Mitchell, Todd Blackadder, Taine Randell, Andrew Blowers, Chresten Davis, Steve Surridge, Aaron Hopa, Isotolo Maka, Scott Robertson, Xavier Rush, Kupu Vanisi, Dylan Mika, Rueben Thorne, Troy Flavell, Filo Tiatia, Ron Cribb and Marty Holah.
Some very good players - some who might have stood at the top of the pantheon but for being blocked by the likes of Jones, Zinny, McCaw and Kronfeld (who might be a half step down).
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@mariner4life yeah our 7s pretty much schooled them through every game, even when they put a hundy over Manawatu, Josh Bradnock was excellent.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
Razor continues to have a massive horn for Blackadder. That's all very well but it's time for him to show everyone why now
it's not just Razor. The last group did everything they could to get him involved as well. I wish someone would tell us what we are missing.
Since you asked... and to post some documented stuff.
Ethan has a massive motor.
Best Bronco times:
McCaw: 4.30
Blackadder 4.32 (4.34 in the article below but there's a podcast where he says 4.32)
Papalií 4.45That's pretty good for a guy who's probably slightly bigger than Richie - and will be playing 6.
Watch: Cam Roigard impresses after blitzing All Blacks' pre-season Bronco
Rising star Cam Roigard has drawn level with playmaker Beauden Barrett in the pre-season Bronco.
His best position is 7 (especially at this level). If they picked him and Paps and said go to it, it would’ve been very understandable.
But, he’s picked at 6?
Richie motor doesn’t really equal great AB six.
Btw, I’ll be pleased to be shown I’m wrong if goes great fun’s, but honestly if we want a Crusader 6, it should be either of the other two options.
I'm concerned players are not being given clear roles in this squad. Razor has talked about favouring players that can play more than one position. Against Fiji we had Blackadder starting at 7, and now against Argentina he is starting at 6, a very different position at test level. Why? Against Fiji we had ALB at 12, and he had a very strong game there. Against Argentina we have him starting at 13, again a very different position at test level. Why?
We've seen this strategy fail spectacularly time and again at the top level, and it has ruined players form and confidence. In fact I can't really think of a player that has truly succeeded in regularly playing different positions for the ABs.
I’m not too concerned about the variation whilst it’s early days with the new coaches.
We have seen this movie before. Take Rodders for example. The first test he started under Henry and co in 2004 was at blindside against Wales. Rodders was a pretty versatile player but I don’t think many would classify him as a 6. The following week he started at no8 against France. Fast forward to the Lions series and he started tests at both no8 and openside.
You can’t do that with every loose forward - remember the Holah at blindside test that was a failure - but there are players like Rodders, like Masoe, like Blackadder that can play that role. Sure they had preferred positions no doubt, but they are there to fill a role.
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@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We entered this year super thin in a few positions because the last two years every game was a must win and the same old side rolled out.
We have to start playing some new guys, or we will enter the next RWC with some broken old men and lots of barely-played newbs.
Edit: and by "playing" I mean playing under red hot conditions, like in South Africa. Merely giving the next tier of players a spell or two in lighter games simply is not preparing them, or the team, properly.
Whose to say that the new guys aren't better? We'll never know if we never give them a chance.
You realise we have something like 45 tests before the next WC right?
Yeah, and I also know we won a RWC with our fourth-string 1st-5 who had played 24 tests by that point. We may not even get our reserve 1st-5 to that many tests at this rate by the next RWC, given that it won't be Beauden Barrett and even Mo'unga will be 33.
At some point we have to stop being conservative. It's not Razor's fault that Foster didn't want to try any new players, but it is his responsibility to deal with the problem.
You want our 4th choice 10 identified before we have our first choice cemented?
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@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@LatsToTheMax said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
@Chester-Draws said in All Blacks vs Argentina I - 10 August:
We entered this year super thin in a few positions because the last two years every game was a must win and the same old side rolled out.
We have to start playing some new guys, or we will enter the next RWC with some broken old men and lots of barely-played newbs.
Edit: and by "playing" I mean playing under red hot conditions, like in South Africa. Merely giving the next tier of players a spell or two in lighter games simply is not preparing them, or the team, properly.
Whose to say that the new guys aren't better? We'll never know if we never give them a chance.
You realise we have something like 45 tests before the next WC right?
Yeah, and I also know we won a RWC with our fourth-string 1st-5 who had played 24 tests by that point. We may not even get our reserve 1st-5 to that many tests at this rate by the next RWC, given that it won't be Beauden Barrett and even Mo'unga will be 33.
At some point we have to stop being conservative. It's not Razor's fault that Foster didn't want to try any new players, but it is his responsibility to deal with the problem.
You want our 4th choice 10 identified before we have our first choice cemented?
Beauden Barrett better learn how to go white baiting
