Ukraine
-
@Billy-Tell said in Ukraine:
Why would the Ukrainians do this?
Maybe because they were told to (why would ISIS do it) I'm not saying it is them but the Ukrainians seem to be just following orders.
And do you really believe the Ukrainian leaders are acting in the countries or people's interests. They have destroyed the country and sacrificed many lives. And for what? Money most likely. War is a profitable business. By selling weapons, corrupt leaders stuffing money in their back pocket and then the corporations dividing up the country when it's all over.
-
@MajorRage said in Ukraine:
ISIS claimed it, posted videos of it on their channels and the videos of the arrested are wearing Isis regalia.
That’s enough for me.
There is a difference between fleeing for Ukraine and Ukraine allowing them in.
Maybe wait until the Russians conclude their investigation. Putin and Russia have no reason to lie and claim Ukraine is involved if they aren't. It's not as if they need an excuse to justify war.
Breaking News: #VladimirPutin has suggested that #Ukraine may have aided the #terrorists responsible for the attack on the #Moscow Concert Hall. According to Putin, all four individuals directly involved in the attack, which resulted in the tragic loss of life, have been captured. He mentioned that the perpetrators were heading towards the Ukrainian border, with intelligence indicating that they were likely being facilitated to enter Ukraine by certain individuals within the country.
Putin emphasized that Russian military, emergency services, and investigators are diligently working to uncover the masterminds behind the terrorist assault. Their focus is on identifying those responsible for providing the attackers with transport, weaponry, and any other support they may have received.
-
why would ISIS do it
Because Islamic State Khorasan Province (ISKP), who have claimed credit and posted videos, declared Russia a mortal enemy after Putin supported President Bashar al-Assad against them in Syria. They also bombed the St Petersburg metro in 2017 killing 15 people, and the attack in Iran that killed 100 people in Jan of this year.
They have also targeted US interests in Afghanistan and the Middle East - the idea that ISKP is some off-shoot or actor for Ukraine or the evil CIA just doesn't hold water.
-
This post is deleted!
-
-
@MajorRage said in Ukraine:
ISIS claimed it, posted videos of it on their channels and the videos of the arrested are wearing Isis regalia.
That’s enough for me.
There is a difference between fleeing for Ukraine and Ukraine allowing them in.
Maybe wait until the Russians conclude their investigation. Putin and Russia have no reason to lie and claim Ukraine is involved if they aren't. It's not as if they need an excuse to justify war.
Breaking News: #VladimirPutin has suggested that #Ukraine may have aided the #terrorists responsible for the attack on the #Moscow Concert Hall. According to Putin, all four individuals directly involved in the attack, which resulted in the tragic loss of life, have been captured. He mentioned that the perpetrators were heading towards the Ukrainian border, with intelligence indicating that they were likely being facilitated to enter Ukraine by certain individuals within the country.
Putin emphasized that Russian military, emergency services, and investigators are
diligently working to uncover the masterminds behind the terrorist assault. creating false evidence to blame the attack on Ukraine. Their focus is on identifying those responsible for providing the attackers with transport, weaponry, and any other support they may have received.Really? The guy who imprisons any one who speaks out against the war in Ukraine, the guy who silences any opposing political rivals..has no reason to lie...
umm how about any opportunity to spread propaganda and lies to excuse their illegal invasion of Ukraine? -
So everything else Russia have claimed is also true
When have I ever said this.
I don't (anymore) see everything based on an ingrained assumption that Russia and Putin (or the Wests promoted enemy) are evil liars. And the West are saint-like and only truth tellers. I wait for the evidence and then try and work it out fairly. As hard as this is.
-
Also Russia have some explaining to do.
No doubt it was Ukraine's fault -
@Victor-Meldrew said in Ukraine:
why would ISIS do it
Because Islamic State Khorasan Province (ISKP), who have claimed credit and posted videos, declared Russia a mortal enemy after Putin supported President Bashar al-Assad against them in Syria. They also bombed the St Petersburg metro in 2017 killing 15 people, and the attack in Iran that killed 100 people in Jan of this year.
They have also targeted US interests in Afghanistan and the Middle East - the idea that ISKP is some off-shoot or actor for Ukraine or the evil CIA just doesn't hold water.
But there are counters to this too. I will wait for the evidence.
-
@Winger I quoted the post where you said Putin has no reason to lie. So why would he lie anything else?
Putin and Russia have no reason to lie
Why would he lie in this situation. Maybe he would but it seems unlikely.
Putin's just won a massive election victory so has a mandate to do just about anything. And the West are pushing for war (now with troops on the ground in Ukraine) so a Russian false flag in this situation is unlikely. My view in this situation Putin's more likely to want to get to the truth and let the people know.
I will wait for the evidence. Luckily, we can still read both sides too. (this may not last though).
One example
-
I wait for the evidence and then try and work it out fairly. As hard as this is.
It's not necessary to wait and see if Putin is a liar, it really isn't.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Ukraine:
I wait for the evidence and then try and work it out fairly. As hard as this is.
It's not hard to work out Putin is a liar, it really isn't.
Western leaders lie too
And sometimes during war its necessary
-
@MajorRage said in Ukraine:
Yup definitely Ukraine behind the attack
no evidence to back up ISIS (who have come out twice to take responsibility), oh wait..https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/23/why-did-isis-k-attack-a-moscow-theatre/
-
Why would he lie in this situation. Maybe he would but it seems unlikely.
Off the top of my head.....
- He immediately dismissed the US warnings of an ISKP attack as "imperialist propaganda" and would look stupid if he then said it was ISKP
- Saying it was ISKP would make his security forces - and by extension Putin - look weak and incompetent
- The last thing Putin wants is to inflame Central Asians in Russia as they are a key source of labour in his war-economy
- Scapegoating Ukraine feeds into his narrative of blaming Ukraine and the West for a declining economy
-
Here's an article on the Wests push for (another) war.
But I think it's too late for Ukraine.
The war in Ukraine is the culmination of a 30-year project of the American neoconservative movement. The Biden Administration is packed with the same neocons who championed the US wars of choice in Serbia (1999), Afghanistan (2001), Iraq (2003), Syria (2011), Libya (2011), and who did so much to provoke Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. The neocon track record is one of unmitigated disaster, yet Biden has staffed his team with neocons. As a result, Biden is steering Ukraine, the US, and the European Union towards yet another geopolitical debacle. If Europe has any insight, it will separate itself from these US foreign policy debacles.
The neocon movement emerged in the 1970s around a group of public intellectuals, several of whom were influenced by University of Chicago political scientist Leo Strauss and Yale University classicist Donald Kagan. Neocon leaders included Norman Podhoretz, Irving Kristol, Paul Wolfowitz, Robert Kagan (son of Donald), Frederick Kagan (son of Donald), Victoria Nuland (wife of Robert), Elliott Abrams, and Kimberley Allen Kagan (wife of Frederick).
The main message of the neocons is that the US must predominate in military power in every region of the world, and must confront rising regional powers that could someday challenge US global or regional dominance, most importantly Russia and China. For this purpose, US military force should be pre-positioned in hundreds of military bases around the world and the US should be prepared to lead wars of choice as necessary. The United Nations is to be used by the US only when useful for US purposes. This approach was spelled out first by Paul Wolfowitz in his draft Defense Policy Guidance (DPG) written for the Department of Defense in 2002.
==================
The most likely outcome of the current fighting is that Russia will conquer a large swath of Ukraine, perhaps leaving Ukraine landlocked or nearly so. Frustration will rise in Europe and the US with the military losses and the stagflationary consequences of war and sanctions. The knock-on effects could be devastating, if a right-wing demagogue in the US rises to power (or in the case of Trump, returns to power) promising to restore America’s faded military glory through dangerous escalation.
Instead of risking this disaster, the real solution is to end the neocon fantasies of the past 30 years and for Ukraine and Russia to return to the negotiating table, with NATO committing to end its commitment to the eastward enlargement to Ukraine and Georgia in return for a viable peace that respects and protects Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in Ukraine:
Why would he lie in this situation. Maybe he would but it seems unlikely.
Off the top of my head.....
- He immediately dismissed the US warnings of an ISKP attack as "imperialist propaganda" and would look stupid if he then said it was ISKP
- Staying it was ISKP would make his security forces - and by extension Putin - look weak and incompetent
- The last thing Putin wants is to inflame Central Asians in Russia as they are a key source on labour in his war-economy
- Scapegoating Ukraine feeds into his narrative of blaming Ukraine and the West for a declining economy
Maybe.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68646375
We do not yet know the exact nature of the information the US possessed or passed or how clear it was. Intelligence can often be vague and hard to act on.
But the US has a vast intelligence-gathering machine and watches IS closely. The branch suspected of the Moscow attack was also linked to one on US forces and civilians at Kabul airport in August 2021, as well as more recent deadly bombings in Iraq.
But if the intelligence that was shared with Russia was credible and specific about IS, then the FSB and Mr Putin might appear to be on the back foot about why they did not take it more seriously.
And if so, it may be easier for Moscow to relate the attack in some way to Ukraine in order to deflect blame and also build support for Russia's actions there, rather than acknowledge what they might have missed.
I