RWC SF: England v Springboks
-
@Bones said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@thelemmning70 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
Think he has just made wrong assumptions.
Yeah it wasn't even directed at him, it was being shouted repeatedly like an instruction and he decides it's for him and follows up by going up to the ref in the middle of the match with a very serious accusation that he knows will be heard on the mic.
Perfect summary
-
-
@Bones said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@thelemmning70 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
Think he has just made wrong assumptions.
Yeah it wasn't even directed at him, it was being shouted repeatedly like an instruction and he decides it's for him and follows up by going up to the ref in the middle of the match with a very serious accusation that he knows will be heard on the mic.
Well, as said above, it needed to be investigated. My take is most likely explanation is Bongi taking Afrikaans and Curry not understanding. If Curry did understand or was shit-stirring however...
-
@Victor-Meldrew thing is, he's shouting it for everyone to hear and it's not even seemingly being said targeting Curry, so why would he take it that way? Unless he didn't...
-
@Bones said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@nostrildamus not apparently. There's nothing and no one anywhere claiming the ref heard it, except for you with zero to back it up. That's absurd.
"since the ref apparently also heard it" I said. I'm happy to concede it is not clear the ref meant he heard it or he meant if it happens he'll do something. As he did not seem to talk to the Boks the latter is quite likely. I'm not fussed either way. Not sure why you want to get me to say I claimed it. Anyway forget it, you be you.
-
@nostrildamus exactly and there's nothing at all to suggest that the ref apparently heard that, so it's a shithouse accusation to make. You're basically saying the ref heard it (apparently) and let it slide.
-
@pakman said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Smuts I was in E12. At the end a couple of Bok fellas were ecstatic with relief. Leaping around like jumping jacks!
Can’t take them out of Pretoria.
The correct response was to finish Swing Low on your own.
-
@Bones said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Victor-Meldrew thing is, he's shouting it for everyone to hear and it's not even seemingly being said targeting Curry, so why would he take it that way? Unless he didn't...
Because deep down he knows what he is. But then every openside worth our salt rejoice in the same knowledge.
Sidenote: happened to be standing next to his family as he walked to the touchline after the game. He’d obviously given everything he had and more. His first words were: I broke my nose. Looked like he’d met a cement mixer after going the wrong way down a one way street. Guy played a blinder. We lose that game if Bongi hadn’t been the cement mixer.
-
@Bones said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Victor-Meldrew thing is, he's shouting it for everyone to hear and it's not even seemingly being said targeting Curry, so why would he take it that way? Unless he didn't...
If true, it's getting a little complicated...
Bongi Mbonambi Afrikaans ‘defence’ undermined as new footage is not moment being investigated
Tom Curry’s allegation he was called a ‘white c---’ is understood to have taken place in an off-the-ball incident
-
@Victor-Meldrew I take it all back. Curry is smarter than SBW.
-
-
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel are you as willing to accept that curry might have made it up ?
Yeah sure. For shits and giggles during the middle of the game Curry decided to make up a story about hearing a racial slur. He even planned it out with Marler and Farrell in advance. They made a pact to do it.
You’re saying curry isn’t capable of gamesmanship?
-
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel are you as willing to accept that curry might have made it up ?
Yeah sure. For shits and giggles during the middle of the game Curry decided to make up a story about hearing a racial slur. He even planned it out with Marler and Farrell in advance. They made a pact to do it.
You’re saying curry isn’t capable of gamesmanship?
Of course he is capable of it. Is Mbonambi capable of calling Curry a White fluffybunny? Of course he is capable of that. In neither case though does that mean either happened. If you want to consider probability, it is more likely that Bongi called him a White fluffybunny in the heat of the moment than that Curry suddenly decided to make up a story about a racial slur. Just as likely though is Bongi calling out in Afrikaans and Curry mistakenly taking exception to it.
For once WR seem to be taking the right stance. Investigation, consideration, decision.
Likely outcome? Nothing to see here, move on.
The thing that strikes me as funny though is that if Bongi did call him a White fluffybunny, everyone will be up in arms only about the bit that is indisputable. Curry is definitely white, whether he’s a fluffybunny or not is just a matter of opinion.
-
@Catogrande if he’d just called him a fluffy bunny (allegedly for @Bones) there would be nothing to see here.
But we’re in a vicious spiral to the bottom in an era of identity politics. So using the colour of someones skin as an adjective when verbally having a pop at someone is a no go zone. Assume pitchforks and torches are waiting if you do.
-
@Catogrande said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@W32 said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Rancid-Schnitzel are you as willing to accept that curry might have made it up ?
Yeah sure. For shits and giggles during the middle of the game Curry decided to make up a story about hearing a racial slur. He even planned it out with Marler and Farrell in advance. They made a pact to do it.
You’re saying curry isn’t capable of gamesmanship?
Of course he is capable of it. Is Mbonambi capable of calling Curry a White fluffybunny? Of course he is capable of that. In neither case though does that mean either happened. If you want to consider probability, it is more likely that Bongi called him a White fluffybunny in the heat of the moment than that Curry suddenly decided to make up a story about a racial slur. Just as likely though is Bongi calling out in Afrikaans and Curry mistakenly taking exception to it.
For once WR seem to be taking the right stance. Investigation, consideration, decision.
Likely outcome? Nothing to see here, move on.
The thing that strikes me as funny though is that if Bongi did call him a White fluffybunny, everyone will be up in arms only about the bit that is indisputable. Curry is definitely white, whether he’s a fluffybunny or not is just a matter of opinion.
The point I'm making is that @Rancid-Schnitzel Is convinced it happened.
I'm just pointing out that he quick to jump to conclusions. Agree with your dialog.
-
@stodders said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Catogrande if he’d just called him a fluffy bunny (allegedly for @Bones) there would be nothing to see here.
But we’re in a vicious spiral to the bottom in an era of identity politics. So using the colour of someones skin as an adjective when verbally having a pop at someone is a no go zone. Assume pitchforks and torches are waiting if you do.
The insidious part of the accusation is that this bok team and Bongi himself represent SA’s painfully slow, difficult and uneven attempts to shed the evils of racism. Though that work is sadly far from finished, they’re a powerful and sadly, pretty lonely, emblem of the huge benefits of embracing equality and harnessing diversity.
All the more powerful given the racist history of SA rugby, its difficulty shedding apartheid’s legacy and the heights Siya’s boks have scaled together, united as South Africans.
We should all celebrate it - rugby did this. As South Africans we know we owe a debt to Kiwis who protested and home nations who boycotted and the many rugby people who spoke out, refused to play or welcomed exiled Safricans into their clubs. Subsequently the rugby community generously welcomed us back and allowed us to host the RWC in 95. Siya, Bongi, Ox as well as Eben, Duane and Kwagga playing together in harmony in a semifinal against their former colonist without enmity in the land of liberty, equality and fraternity is a legacy that we all share and ought to treasure.
So I admit my prejudice: I don’t want it tarnished on the strength of what one exhausted man thought he heard over the roar of the crowd as he was caught up in the swirling vortex of that glorious night. No matter how bravely he was playing or how true his yeoman heart.
As a South African and a Mbonambi admirer from way back, I admit my further prejudice: White fluffybunny’s a shit sledge.
It’s been a long while since I played in SA and longer since I lived there, but White fluffybunny wasn’t an insult that I ever heard (unless I was wearing white.) And hell, I got the full inventive range of suiver (correct) Afrikaans/coloured Afrikaans insults (to say nothing of our other 10 languages) hurled at me - mostly by my own teammates. So it seems improbable to me that Bongi would add what to South Africans would be a neutral descriptor if he wanted to call Curry a doos (fluffybunny in Afrikaans.) Rancid, yes, cheating, every practice, clumsy, sure, ma se, fucked out, exploded, awful, huge, rough, syphalitic, all the time, but white? Only for the season I played in a white jersey. And my Zulu mates caught it just as often as me.
But all this is just me bringing my own cultural bias and experiences to the issue. If they’re at odds with the facts then Mbonambi should face appropriate consequences.
On the other hand, if Mbonambi didn’t hurl out a racist slur I’d hope that Curry and everyone else who assumed the accusation might have merit or who jumped onto last week’s lip reading exercise might examine their inbuilt prejudices and maybe update their mental model of this SA team.
My bias is for us all to embrace and take pride in the minor miracle of Siya’s multiracial bok team even if Mbonambi was a stupid fluffybunny and hurled the alleged slur. But of all the flavours of fluffybunny hurled at me on pitches and in grandstands and pubs across the globe, no ones every called me a naive fluffybunny. So I’m not holding my breath.
-
-
@OomPB said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@Smuts What about the Kiwis who played rugby against the Springboks?
Regtig Oom?
I’m not judging their rough choice any more than Oom Louw’s decision to go on the flourbomb tour despite his outspoken condemnation of apartheid in rugby. Louw thought he could do more good befriending Māori players. And he was probably right, though it conveniently allowed him to keep playing for the boks.
Maar ek kannie vir hom blammeer nie (but I can’t blame him). I’ve made far worse moral decisions for far less reward. But it’s important to recognize and celebrate the courage of guys like Kirk who took a stand and showed us all that some things are just bigger than rugby.
I’m using Kirk only because I know he turned down pretty good cash when he refused to go on the Cavaliers tour. Sadly, I don’t know which if any ABs refused to play the boks in official test matches because they objected to apartheid. I’m sure some of our kiwi mates can improve my ignorance.
-
@Bones said in RWC SF: England v Springboks:
@nostrildamus exactly and there's nothing at all to suggest that the ref apparently heard that, so it's a shithouse accusation to make. You're basically saying the ref heard it (apparently) and let it slide.
You're basically saying
I'm not. You're just adding in new words to change what I meant.
it's a shithouse accusation to make
I am not accusing anyone. I could have said "allegedly" as that is what I meant:
"You use apparently to indicate that the information you are giving is something that you have heard, but you are not certain that it is true."
As for "nothing at all"? Then I don't know what World Rugby is investigating because as far as I know England has not made a complaint and after the match Curry did not want to talk about any "allegation."
World Rugby investigating alleged racial slur in England-South Africa World Cup semifinal
World Rugby says it will review an allegation of racism from South Africa's World Cup semifinal win over England, with Springboks hooker Bongi Mbonambi at risk of missing the final if found guilty.
I don't know why you are wasting time on this. I don't know what was said, I don't know if BOK heard what Curry might have heard but his answer as reported could be read in at least 2 different ways (he heard it, he didn't hear it but told Curry not to do anything anyway) as I explained. But you aren't listening anyway so I'll follow your example.
