RWC 3rd/4th: England v Argentina
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@pakman said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@NTA said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
My preferred outcome from here: Boks lose controversially and ABs beat England in the final.
Any time the Boks lose controversially, it is funny. Hilarious, even. Especially when it isn't against the ABs.
And then Argentina win 3rd
You nearly got your wish!
What did you make of second semi scrums in last 20? I haven’t watched on TV but looked to me that in one Bongi popped George. Others lots of shenanigans!
Snyman was important for stability but Nche gets the award for damage.
If the substitution laws were different he would be nowhere near test rugby, but they aren't, so here he is.
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@Dodge not sold on Smith, strikes me as a poor man's Mounga, but yeah only young so if he matures to what Richie has, he'll be plenty handy.
I like Lawrence, star in the making and if Marchant gets consistent game time they'll be a great midfield for a long time.
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That’s it we pick Marchant, he’s off to France and at the moment we won’t pick from overseas. Bullshit really given we have no control over the club selections in England. If you’re playing T14 you should be available IMO
Re Smith, you may be right, but he deserves a run without Farrell outside him
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@NTA said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@pakman said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@NTA said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
My preferred outcome from here: Boks lose controversially and ABs beat England in the final.
Any time the Boks lose controversially, it is funny. Hilarious, even. Especially when it isn't against the ABs.
And then Argentina win 3rd
You nearly got your wish!
What did you make of second semi scrums in last 20? I haven’t watched on TV but looked to me that in one Bongi popped George. Others lots of shenanigans!
Snyman was important for stability but Nche gets the award for damage.
If the substitution laws were different he would be nowhere near test rugby, but they aren't, so here he is.
Scrum at 57 Ox shunts Cole back a yard, but he jumps feet back and stays straight.
Scrum at 60ish, ten yards from Bok line, Sinckler pushes Ox back on engage, but on far side of scrum Koch comes in at 45 degrees and together with Bongi pops George. To me penalty England.
Genge, rightly complains before next scrum and BOK switches sides. Ox pushes Sinckler down and while he doesn't collapse it forces him to drop the bind and BOK penalises him (AR call). Not completely sure but suspect a fair penalty. However, important thing is BOK registers that Boks on top.
TBC
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@nzzp said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@pakman reinforces that scrum penalties can be a bit of a lottery. Refs struggle, but they are not given laws that help them do their job.
So why we award penalties for them when the ball is clearly won and available is a total nosense.
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@Bones said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
Have I missed the reason why this has turned into the South Africa Vs England thread?
how the SA scrum actually went- and if we have a chance against their immobile replacement man mountains. I guess.
Derailing is a Fern tradition
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@nzzp said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
clarified
This head contact crap in the tackle is ridiculous. What it has now encouraged the ball carrier to do is drop his head into contact and the tackler has nowhere to go.
saw Itoje carry once with his head about waist height. How the hell you tackle him I have no idea. Modern pro rugby doesn't encourage chop tackling - it's almost all 'dominant front on' tackling
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@pakman said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
Scrum at 57 Ox shunts Cole back a yard, but he jumps feet back and stays straight.
Cole came off at 56 minutes? Nche came on around 49 minutes, so looking at scrums in that time, there is only 1:
50:52 - England feed. Scrum engages. Cole at full extension, Nche arse over heels. After the feed England get drilled as Nche goes under and up. Tighthead to the Boks as the ball comes out. Play on.
Scrum at 60ish, ten yards from Bok line, Sinckler pushes Ox back on engage, but on far side of scrum Koch comes in at 45 degrees and together with Bongi pops George. To me penalty England.
Scrum awarded 57:19. Doesn't engage until 58:34 - so much for the new directives!
Sinckler is on at that stage for Cole. Scrum hits, Koch on the TH side for the Boks goes to a knee on engage, then gets up but it hits the deck again prior to feed. Reset but I would have penalised the Boks - knee to deck on feed, and despite recovering did it again, on the angle. Raynal didn't get involved?
The reset engages at 59:40 (2:20 after the original scrum blown). Mbonambi's knee is nearly on the deck.
Check out England's reserve lock behind Sinckler tho: gets into a high position, then moves his feet around the time of engage to adjust, then looks like he overextends a bit. Koch and Mbonambi - driven by Snyman - attack George and pop him out. Nche didn't have much to do with that TBF.
Overhead shot shows Koch wasn't lined up 100% straight but they were going forward and George had nowhere to go but up.
Genge, rightly complains before next scrum and BOK switches sides. Ox pushes Sinckler down and while he doesn't collapse it forces him to drop the bind and BOK penalises him (AR call). Not completely sure but suspect a fair penalty. However, important thing is BOK registers that Boks on top.
63:09 - for me, this one is a problem. BOK calls Sinckler for losing his bind, but I think Koch is heading toward the deck because Mbonambi is packing so low. No way can Sinckler hold a bind if the Boks are driving downward, so a bit of a furphy I think.
Genge asked BOK to watch the side he was on, and I think the AR on Sinckler's side who made the call got in his ear first.
67:28 - England lose the hit, and hit the deck on the far side (Genge and George). Looked like a good call. Looked like Raynal made that one and he had the best view.
73:39 - England get a bit of traction as Koch stays up, but ball comes out.
75:12 - reset. 76:01 - England done for Genge driving in. The higher angle shows Koch is sideways as well, but by then BOK already has the Boks as a better scrum so those calls are only going one way.
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Argentina could get up here just for the simple fact that they want to be there. Don't know what England's attitude towards it is.
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@NTA said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@pakman said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
Scrum at 57 Ox shunts Cole back a yard, but he jumps feet back and stays straight.
Cole came off at 56 minutes? Nche came on around 49 minutes, so looking at scrums in that time, there is only 1:
50:52 - England feed. Scrum engages. Cole at full extension, Nche arse over heels. After the feed England get drilled as Nche goes under and up. Tighthead to the Boks as the ball comes out. Play on.
Scrum at 60ish, ten yards from Bok line, Sinckler pushes Ox back on engage, but on far side of scrum Koch comes in at 45 degrees and together with Bongi pops George. To me penalty England.
Scrum awarded 57:19. Doesn't engage until 58:34 - so much for the new directives!
Sinckler is on at that stage for Cole. Scrum hits, Koch on the TH side for the Boks goes to a knee on engage, then gets up but it hits the deck again prior to feed. Reset but I would have penalised the Boks - knee to deck on feed, and despite recovering did it again, on the angle. Raynal didn't get involved?
The reset engages at 59:40 (2:20 after the original scrum blown). Mbonambi's knee is nearly on the deck.
Check out England's reserve lock behind Sinckler tho: gets into a high position, then moves his feet around the time of engage to adjust, then looks like he overextends a bit. Koch and Mbonambi - driven by Snyman - attack George and pop him out. Nche didn't have much to do with that TBF.
Overhead shot shows Koch wasn't lined up 100% straight but they were going forward and George had nowhere to go but up.
Genge, rightly complains before next scrum and BOK switches sides. Ox pushes Sinckler down and while he doesn't collapse it forces him to drop the bind and BOK penalises him (AR call). Not completely sure but suspect a fair penalty. However, important thing is BOK registers that Boks on top.
63:09 - for me, this one is a problem. BOK calls Sinckler for losing his bind, but I think Koch is heading toward the deck because Mbonambi is packing so low. No way can Sinckler hold a bind if the Boks are driving downward, so a bit of a furphy I think.
Genge asked BOK to watch the side he was on, and I think the AR on Sinckler's side who made the call got in his ear first.
67:28 - England lose the hit, and hit the deck on the far side (Genge and George). Looked like a good call. Looked like Raynal made that one and he had the best view.
73:39 - England get a bit of traction as Koch stays up, but ball comes out.
75:12 - reset. 76:01 - England done for Genge driving in. The higher angle shows Koch is sideways as well, but by then BOK already has the Boks as a better scrum so those calls are only going one way.
Great work!
Several things.
At 50.51 huge legal scrum and England pushed off own ball. Pakman Jr. at game commented that he couldn’t remember that against England, and the last time must have been a while ago.
At 59.40 Koch is being aided by PSDT binding at 45 degrees and Koch is right on George so much so that PSDT almost ends up binding on Genge.
That may have been the most critical call of entire match. First because penalty 10m out for England, and a score then might have been decisive. But for sure because it would have forced BOK to acknowledge that Boks weren’t blameless, which meant he might have been less inclined to penalise England.
As for last one, haven’t watched yet on replay, but I suspect Lawes detaches early, so irrespective of if Koch was boring in Genge was lamb to slaughter. That said, I think there’s a fair chance Barnes would have blown the other way. Was right in front of BOK’s nose, though.
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@mooshld said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@nzzp said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@pakman reinforces that scrum penalties can be a bit of a lottery. Refs struggle, but they are not given laws that help them do their job.
So why we award penalties for them when the ball is clearly won and available is a total nosense.
It is now at a point that when it comes to the scrum the refs all put on their collective technical hats on and pick up stuff that is likely technically incorrect but doesn’t have any bearing on the outcome of the scrum being won.
Contrast that with almost every other aspect of the game and the “feel” is a dominant feature. Even the most pedant ref of the tackle and ruck still demonstrate a feel for the game. But nooooo, not the scrum. We have to show a textbook response
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@sparky said in RWC 3rd/4th: England v Argentina:
Borthwick should use this as a dress rehearsal for the 2024 Six Nations, play the team he’s likely to use in that tournament.
Wouldn’t be a bad idea but he’s left most of them at home! In the backs mainly, likely retirees, Care, Youngs, Tuilagi, May, Daly. Off to France, Marchant, Arundell.
So we’re left with one scrum half, three 10s, one centre, zero wings and a fullback.
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@pakman said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@NTA said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
@pakman said in RWC SF: All Blacks v Argentina:
Scrum at 57 Ox shunts Cole back a yard, but he jumps feet back and stays straight.
Cole came off at 56 minutes? Nche came on around 49 minutes, so looking at scrums in that time, there is only 1:
50:52 - England feed. Scrum engages. Cole at full extension, Nche arse over heels. After the feed England get drilled as Nche goes under and up. Tighthead to the Boks as the ball comes out. Play on.
Scrum at 60ish, ten yards from Bok line, Sinckler pushes Ox back on engage, but on far side of scrum Koch comes in at 45 degrees and together with Bongi pops George. To me penalty England.
Scrum awarded 57:19. Doesn't engage until 58:34 - so much for the new directives!
Sinckler is on at that stage for Cole. Scrum hits, Koch on the TH side for the Boks goes to a knee on engage, then gets up but it hits the deck again prior to feed. Reset but I would have penalised the Boks - knee to deck on feed, and despite recovering did it again, on the angle. Raynal didn't get involved?
The reset engages at 59:40 (2:20 after the original scrum blown). Mbonambi's knee is nearly on the deck.
Check out England's reserve lock behind Sinckler tho: gets into a high position, then moves his feet around the time of engage to adjust, then looks like he overextends a bit. Koch and Mbonambi - driven by Snyman - attack George and pop him out. Nche didn't have much to do with that TBF.
Overhead shot shows Koch wasn't lined up 100% straight but they were going forward and George had nowhere to go but up.
Genge, rightly complains before next scrum and BOK switches sides. Ox pushes Sinckler down and while he doesn't collapse it forces him to drop the bind and BOK penalises him (AR call). Not completely sure but suspect a fair penalty. However, important thing is BOK registers that Boks on top.
63:09 - for me, this one is a problem. BOK calls Sinckler for losing his bind, but I think Koch is heading toward the deck because Mbonambi is packing so low. No way can Sinckler hold a bind if the Boks are driving downward, so a bit of a furphy I think.
Genge asked BOK to watch the side he was on, and I think the AR on Sinckler's side who made the call got in his ear first.
67:28 - England lose the hit, and hit the deck on the far side (Genge and George). Looked like a good call. Looked like Raynal made that one and he had the best view.
73:39 - England get a bit of traction as Koch stays up, but ball comes out.
75:12 - reset. 76:01 - England done for Genge driving in. The higher angle shows Koch is sideways as well, but by then BOK already has the Boks as a better scrum so those calls are only going one way.
Great work!
Several things.
At 50.51 huge legal scrum and England pushed off own ball. Pakman Jr. at game commented that he couldn’t remember that against England, and the last time must have been a while ago.
At 59.40 Koch is being aided by PSDT binding at 45 degrees and Koch is right on George so much so that PSDT almost ends up binding on Genge.
That may have been the most critical call of entire match. First because penalty 10m out for England, and a score then might have been decisive. But for sure because it would have forced BOK to acknowledge that Boks weren’t blameless, which meant he might have been less inclined to penalise England.
As for last one, haven’t watched yet on replay, but I suspect Lawes detaches early, so irrespective of if Koch was boring in Genge was lamb to slaughter. That said, I think there’s a fair chance Barnes would have blown the other way. Was right in front of BOK’s nose, though.
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Having had my whinge, what I would like to see as our squad for the Argies is:
Marler, Dan, Cole.
Ribbans, Martin.
Curry, Earl, Underhill.
Mitchell, Smith.
May, Lawrence, Marchant, Arundell.
StewardBench:
Genge, George, Sinckler, Chessum/Itoje, Ludlam, Care, Ford, Daly -
@Catogrande said in RWC 3rd/4th: England v Argentina:
Having had my whinge, what I would like to see as our squad for the Argies is:
Marler, Dan, Cole.
Ribbans, Martin.
Curry, Earl, Underhill.
Mitchell, Smith.
May, Lawrence, Marchant, Arundell.
StewardBench:
Genge, George, Sinckler, Chessum/Itoje, Ludlam, Care, Ford, Daly2 hopes
Bob and no
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Seems pretty clear why he called it he dropped to a knee. Is it worthy of a penalty probably not but thems the rules. Hand on the ground or knee on the ground gets called. Yes I am sure there are examples of where it isn't but hard to complain when the communication is so clear.
