All Blacks 2023
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@Canes4life said in All Blacks 2023:
@Rancid-Schnitzel nicely put. He started showing this in 2019 for the Hurricanes, I remember the Canes had a backline geared for running rugby and all Beauden did was kick, kick, kick. Then he took that same mentality onto the Blues and he's been doing it ever since. Maybe lost his confidence somewhere along the line but from seasons 2015-2017 he was notably one of the best runners of the rugby ball going around.
Was the rush defence as prevalent in 2015-2017?
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@pakman the rush defense was definitely a thing because that's pretty much how the Canes won their 2016 title. Lead by Cory Jane and Matt Proctor the Canes came up with a rush defense structure that didn't concede a try through the playoffs.
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
Mounga handled the ball a lot at the back as he dropped back when Barrett went to first receiver
Would that perhaps suggest Barrett was at "first defender" if Mounga was receiving the ball at the back? i.e., they had the ball and were kicking it?
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@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.We are three weeks away from "4 more years boys".
Either Foster or some strong figures within the group (if there are any) need to grab a hold of this. Like you say I fear we will all be left wondering what could have been...
We don't have a 2015 vintage available but there are plenty of players knocking around who are/could have been useful. The initial 33 was poorly selected and furthermore he is not even selecting correctly from the 33 he himself picked.
Id have Heem, Levi Aumua, RTS over ALB and Havili. He has had 4 years to find someone to carry the ball at 12. It took 2.5 of those for him to pick Jordie.
Aumua isn't eligible yet is he? And RTS has only recently been found to be a good fullback (over 12) and was tried at 12 so I can't blame Foster over those two.
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Amua is available he is NZ born and has not played for anyone else.
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thanks was not sure.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.We are three weeks away from "4 more years boys".
Either Foster or some strong figures within the group (if there are any) need to grab a hold of this. Like you say I fear we will all be left wondering what could have been...
We don't have a 2015 vintage available but there are plenty of players knocking around who are/could have been useful. The initial 33 was poorly selected and furthermore he is not even selecting correctly from the 33 he himself picked.
Id have Heem, Levi Aumua, RTS over ALB and Havili. He has had 4 years to find someone to carry the ball at 12. It took 2.5 of those for him to pick Jordie.
Aumua isn't eligible yet is he? And RTS has only recently been found to be a good fullback (over 12) and was tried at 12 so I can't blame Foster over those two.
Who would have thought RTS could play fullback? Nobody could have foreseen that!
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@Crazy-Horse How likely are we to call in reinforcements at this stage?
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.We are three weeks away from "4 more years boys".
Either Foster or some strong figures within the group (if there are any) need to grab a hold of this. Like you say I fear we will all be left wondering what could have been...
We don't have a 2015 vintage available but there are plenty of players knocking around who are/could have been useful. The initial 33 was poorly selected and furthermore he is not even selecting correctly from the 33 he himself picked.
Id have Heem, Levi Aumua, RTS over ALB and Havili. He has had 4 years to find someone to carry the ball at 12. It took 2.5 of those for him to pick Jordie.
Aumua isn't eligible yet is he? And RTS has only recently been found to be a good fullback (over 12) and was tried at 12 so I can't blame Foster over those two.
Who would have thought RTS could play fullback? Nobody could have foreseen that!
Well Rangi didn't and you'd think he could spot someone with transferrable skills in that position even if from league.
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Apologies if already posted, but former SMH rugby writer (and former Kiwi) Spiro Zavos, writing for the Roar, has this assessment of the dual playmaker experiment:
“If there needs to be further proof that the two playmaker system does not work, we need to look no further than the All Blacks and their loss to France in the opening match of the 2023 RWC tournament.
It is obvious now, or should be, that the All Blacks’ selector coaches have made a massive mistake in not entrusting the team four years ago to the playmaking leadership of Richie Mo’unga, the way previous RWC-winning All Black sides were entrusted to one playmaker, mainly Grant Fox in 1987 and Dan Carter in 2011 and 2015.
In the match against France, Barrett seemed to play in the line more than Mo’unga who was camped at fullback for long periods of play. The effect of this meant that there was no consistent method in the way the All Blacks tried to counter the France’s arrow-like rush defence.
Mo’unga’s skill is running the game, in the line, with the occasional searing break of his own. All the time. He needs to have his hands on the ball most of the plays calling them from virtually every set piece, ruck and maul.
This is elementary 101 playmaking theory. All Blacks coach Ian Foster, a former No.10 himself, should know this.
He should also know that Beauden Barrett, one of the great players of his era, is a shadow of his former self as a player. In my opinion, the terrible concussion he suffered in the 2022 Test against Ireland at Aviva Stadium has had a dulling effect on his former brilliant running game.
This infatuation with the two playmakers’ game and poor selection has also impacted on the positions key players have been placed.
Barrett at this time in his career could be used as a reserve who could play cameos at fullback or No.10. Will Jordan should be the starting fullback for the All Blacks. Jordan as a fullback, as he does for the Crusaders, would be mainly running where he is a match-winner and occasionally putting in kicks. He would not be subjected to the ordeal as he was against France of having to chase Barrett’s high kicks, most of them too long and not high enough, with the risk of getting his timing wrong.
As it was he failed to snatch any of the high balls the French backs were challenged with. But he was yellow-carded once and could easily have been charged again which would have been red card territory and dangerous ground for him as far as staying in the tournament.
The official excuse for the high ball tactic by the All Blacks apparently was that it would conserve the energy of the players in the torrid heated conditions.
But chasing 30m or so time and again in the heat cannot be described as a conservation policy. It was madness. It failed to achieve anything other than tiring a brilliant runner and exposing him to injury or a card or two.
When I watched Jordan, a natural and gifted try-scorer, being required to chase high ball I thought that it was a disgrace rather like requiring Phar Lap to compete in a steeplechase race.”
(Zavos also criticises the appointment of Cane as captain and the positioning of Savea at number 8. Full article below):
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Mo’unga’s skill is running the game, in the line, with the occasional searing break of his own. All the time. He needs to have his hands on the ball most of the plays calling them from virtually every set piece, ruck and maul.
He actually doesn't handle the ball much even at lower levels. Guys like Havili and Jordan come into first receiver a lot at the Crusaders. Mo'unga's strength is picking and choosing his moments. Quite often he sweeps behind the backline looking for a forward to isolate
Against more organised Test match defences the mismatches aren't as common he goes long periods without getting involved.
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@His-Bobness said in All Blacks 2023:
Apologies if already posted, but former SMH rugby writer (and former Kiwi) Spiro Zavos, writing for the Roar, has this assessment of the dual playmaker experiment:
“If there needs to be further proof that the two playmaker system does not work, we need to look no further than the All Blacks and their loss to France in the opening match of the 2023 RWC tournament.
It is obvious now, or should be, that the All Blacks’ selector coaches have made a massive mistake in not entrusting the team four years ago to the playmaking leadership of Richie Mo’unga, the way previous RWC-winning All Black sides were entrusted to one playmaker, mainly Grant Fox in 1987 and Dan Carter in 2011 and 2015.
In the match against France, Barrett seemed to play in the line more than Mo’unga who was camped at fullback for long periods of play. The effect of this meant that there was no consistent method in the way the All Blacks tried to counter the France’s arrow-like rush defence.
Mo’unga’s skill is running the game, in the line, with the occasional searing break of his own. All the time. He needs to have his hands on the ball most of the plays calling them from virtually every set piece, ruck and maul.
This is elementary 101 playmaking theory. All Blacks coach Ian Foster, a former No.10 himself, should know this.
He should also know that Beauden Barrett, one of the great players of his era, is a shadow of his former self as a player. In my opinion, the terrible concussion he suffered in the 2022 Test against Ireland at Aviva Stadium has had a dulling effect on his former brilliant running game.
This infatuation with the two playmakers’ game and poor selection has also impacted on the positions key players have been placed.
Barrett at this time in his career could be used as a reserve who could play cameos at fullback or No.10. Will Jordan should be the starting fullback for the All Blacks. Jordan as a fullback, as he does for the Crusaders, would be mainly running where he is a match-winner and occasionally putting in kicks. He would not be subjected to the ordeal as he was against France of having to chase Barrett’s high kicks, most of them too long and not high enough, with the risk of getting his timing wrong.
As it was he failed to snatch any of the high balls the French backs were challenged with. But he was yellow-carded once and could easily have been charged again which would have been red card territory and dangerous ground for him as far as staying in the tournament.
The official excuse for the high ball tactic by the All Blacks apparently was that it would conserve the energy of the players in the torrid heated conditions.
But chasing 30m or so time and again in the heat cannot be described as a conservation policy. It was madness. It failed to achieve anything other than tiring a brilliant runner and exposing him to injury or a card or two.
When I watched Jordan, a natural and gifted try-scorer, being required to chase high ball I thought that it was a disgrace rather like requiring Phar Lap to compete in a steeplechase race.”
(Zavos also criticises the appointment of Cane as captain and the positioning of Savea at number 8. Full article below):
So basically Foster is a muppet. Cheers
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@His-Bobness Yeah I posted that in another thread, but I mostly agree. We had the discussion that Aride plays 8 at SR, but really should be playing 7 at International as he just isn't big enough. I also agree with that
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks 2023:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks 2023:
@Steve said in All Blacks 2023:
DMac and Roigard
It's got to the point where we need to make use of these guys.
This place is going to get super grim if we go down without a fight.We are three weeks away from "4 more years boys".
Either Foster or some strong figures within the group (if there are any) need to grab a hold of this. Like you say I fear we will all be left wondering what could have been...
We don't have a 2015 vintage available but there are plenty of players knocking around who are/could have been useful. The initial 33 was poorly selected and furthermore he is not even selecting correctly from the 33 he himself picked.
Id have Heem, Levi Aumua, RTS over ALB and Havili. He has had 4 years to find someone to carry the ball at 12. It took 2.5 of those for him to pick Jordie.
Aumua isn't eligible yet is he? And RTS has only recently been found to be a good fullback (over 12) and was tried at 12 so I can't blame Foster over those two.
Who would have thought RTS could play fullback? Nobody could have foreseen that!
Well Rangi didn't and you'd think he could spot someone with transferrable skills in that position even if from league.
Rangi also didn't have the stones to move Beauden out of 10 for the Blues so i wouldn't be so sure.
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"The official excuse for the high ball tactic by the All Blacks apparently was that it would conserve the energy of the players in the torrid heated conditions."
Wow, did they really say that? At this point even the true believers must be a tad concerned.
Something I just thought about was Foster's Chiefs making it to the Super final and getting pumped by a million. I'm thinking it might be better going down fighting in the QF than a record hammering in the final.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
Mo’unga’s skill is running the game, in the line, with the occasional searing break of his own. All the time. He needs to have his hands on the ball most of the plays calling them from virtually every set piece, ruck and maul.
This is elementary 101 playmaking theory. All Blacks coach Ian Foster, a former No.10 himself, should know this.
This is fine except it ignores the fact that this is not how Mo'unga plays, at any level. One of his biggest strengths is being able to spot mis-matches in the defensive line and exploit them. To utilise this strength he often stations himself a bit wider, which is why you often don't see him at first receiver for periods of the game at both SR and test level, particularly in the 2nd 40.
I think if we want a first five that takes the ball and directs every single play then Mo'unga is not the man for the job. DMac is probably the closest thing we have to a first five like that, but the jury is out on whether he could do it against one of the big teams.
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@His-Bobness said in All Blacks 2023:
Apologies if already posted, but former SMH rugby writer (and former Kiwi) Spiro Zavos, writing for the Roar, has this assessment of the dual playmaker experiment:
All respect for Spiros' history, but this is really phoning it in. ChatGPT could write the same column based on what's in this thread alone. The only new insight was the rationale for the high kick tactic as a response to the hot conditions, but he doesn't give a source for that info, and it doesn't gel with all the other times they've used the same tactic in the cold.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks 2023:
Mo’unga’s skill is running the game, in the line, with the occasional searing break of his own. All the time. He needs to have his hands on the ball most of the plays calling them from virtually every set piece, ruck and maul.
He actually doesn't handle the ball much even at lower levels. Guys like Havili and Jordan come into first receiver a lot at the Crusaders. Mo'unga's strength is picking and choosing his moments. Quite often he sweeps behind the backline looking for a forward to isolate
Against more organised Test match defences the mismatches aren't as common he goes long periods without getting involved.
exactly this. mounga plays more like an alternative first receiver - it almost ends up as if we aren't actually playing 2 x 10s, we are playing no 10s and 2 x 15s.
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Thinking on it a bit more, the reason for the dual play maker is probably BECAUSE it frees Mo'unga up to exploit some fatties out wide if he sees the chance, which is why Beauden plays in the line a fair bit. I can see the merit in it, but getting Beauden and Mo'unga to really gel when they don't play footy together outside of the ABs is challenging. They have definitely improved a lot last season and this though - they've actually had some really good games together recently.
