All Blacks 2023
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby but BB is kicking poorly (the worldy on the weekend being the exception)
for me its straight forward, to get the ball to our weapons at 11,13,14 it needs to go through a second Boss which is normally the 15, 9 > 10 > 12 > 13 > 11/14 just doesnt work against the rust defence....but when we go through BB either of 9 or 10....he kicks it. I would like to see the 15 actually inject himself and either draw a defender before unleashing other....or if he times it right breaking the line
I feel Jordan is more likely to do that than BB
You can debate the first point if you want, personally I think his general range kicking was actually fairly good, and was something noted at the time.
With your second point, your basically just saying you don't like Foster's tactics with ball in hand, and you'd like to see us do something different. If Beauden Barrett wasn't following the gameplan, contrary to popular belief, he'd have been dropped. If the coaches didn't want him to do the chip kicks, he'd stop doing them, or he wouldn't be playing.
Barrett (and to a lesser extent Mo'unga) have just become the fall guys for when the All Blacks attack goes wrong.
IMO, the only time this year, where the players have not successfully carried out the attacking gameplan in the eyes of the coaches, was DMac in Dunedin, hence he was subbed after about 50 minutes...
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@akan004 said in All Blacks 2023:
@Rancid-Schnitzel Moving Jordan to FB also brings Leicester into the 15, and he offers more punch around the rucks than most of our forwards do.
I don't know, I'm just desperate for something to change as the current formula is not working.
that's a pretty good point. we need more guys who can punch it up, because we lack that in our unbalanced forward pack, and telea and jordan don't offer it.
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
watch that game without any knowledge of that New Zealand side, and I'm not really sure you'd come away with fullback as being the big issue.
pretty sure the majority of the second half is just talk about how bad he was playing
that and the fact 15 is one of the positions we havent changed much over the last several years, my example above explains in a very simple way how the 15 unleashes the 11,13,14.....and the fact we've been saying for several years our wings aren't being put in space....it doesnt seem like rocket surgery to suggest we try the form super rugby 15 there
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby serious question then, why was the gameplan so different when McKenzie started vs Argentina? That is the best our backline has looked in years. And then the gameplan changed right back?
Was our gameplan any different? Reckon you'll find in that game, we attacked with width, and looking to play an expansive game (as we did vs France). I think you'll find DMac took the ball to the line on occasion (as did Mo'unga). Did we chip kick more vs France? Quite possibly, but don't forget also, against a better defensive unit, you tend to have to look for other options, because they won't make the soft misses the Argies made - who have been rubbish this year.
The All Blacks attacking numbers were actually better than France, the issue was more so the 12 penalties conceded to the French's 4 despite a near 50/50 possession count.
We kicked 39 times for 631 metres, vs France doing so 44 times for 449. Does this not suggest we weren't the ones doing the dinky kicks? Considering the low ball in play time, I don't think it is unreasonable to say with better discipline, we could have won say 18-16 or something...
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
watch that game without any knowledge of that New Zealand side, and I'm not really sure you'd come away with fullback as being the big issue.
pretty sure the majority of the second half is just talk about how bad he was playing
that and the fact 15 is one of the positions we havent changed much over the last several years, my example above explains in a very simple way how the 15 unleashes the 11,13,14.....and the fact we've been saying for several years our wings aren't being put in space....it doesnt seem like rocket surgery to suggest we try the form super rugby 15 there
I hear you, and I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment (though I'm not sold on Stevenson either) but you are asking the All Blacks to change their gameplan - which I think is often something people just decide is a critique of Barrett. As I say, Beaudy has been playing 15 for what, roughly the last 15 tests? (Since Jordie moved to 12) and they have not really tried anyone else, which says to me the coaches are happy that he is carrying out the gameplan.
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@His-Bobness said in All Blacks 2023:
@Chris-B Agree with you about Fozzy selecting players with a gun to his head, which is why you get the sense he has been trying to avoid losing games rather than seeking to win them. But that’s once again the legacy of a poor appointment by the NZR in the first place and a patch-up solution last year that has only prolonged the agony and satisfied no-one.
As to the RC and BC wins, it’s become rapidly evident that those games earlier in the year provided a misleading picture about where the ABs were at both physically and mentally. SA were underdone going into that Mt Smart game, having split their squad - just as we were underdone going into the WC warm-ups. The wheels have clearly fallen off the Argentine chariot under Cheika, while who knows where the Wallabies are at under Fast Eddie?
I also agree with you about Beauden Barrett being well past his prime. As others have pointed out, he seems to be very wary of another head knock (understandably) and his resulting hesitancy has defused one of the remaining AB traditional strengths, which is the counter-attack from the back.
Where there had been improvements in the forwards - the new front row of last year - appear to have been more Ryan’s doing than anything. But then those players - like DeGroot and Taukei'aho - appear to have subsequently lost their mojos.
To me, it looks like poor man management and talent development. And that in turn is a reflection, in my opinion at least, of the disaster that has been the Foster regime. The fish rots from the head down, and all that. At a wider level, though, the NZR itself has been managed disastrously. That may partly reflect that it is now a servant to two masters - in the NZ public and its private equity overlords at Silver Lake.
This is not to deny the other frequently cited contributing factors to the ABs’ relative demise - such as other powerhouses in France and Ireland and elsewhere catching up, the greater financial reserves in Europe, the growing depth of talent there and the drying up of the talent pipeline in NZ, as seen by the lack of U20 titles in recent years.
But successful management in any enterprise starts with focusing on what you can control. And I still think the NZR made a monumental error in bequeathing the head coaching role to Foster four years ago because it was his turn. We stopped innovating, we ran established talent into the ground and we burned up a generation of new talent with disastrous selection policies.
Four more years boys (and Polish ladies)
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I personally see this as a far greater issue with the defensive work of our engine room, than the play of our backs... also this dispels the myth that Barrett is at first receiver 60% of the time lol.
IMO, ALB and Vaa'i who aren't in our top side were quite clearly two main issues, because you might as well have had Phil Inn on the bloody field.
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I'm struggling think of the last AB test where Beauden's running game was near it's peak.
I would suggest there would be very few tests in this world cup cycle where it has been.
I think a big issue is that 9, 10 and 15 don't complement each other skillset wise. If you had a 9 and/or 10 with a big boot you may be able to carry Beauden as a fullback but currently we have no big boots in our backline at all. Jordie has a big punt but at 12 rarely uses it and at 15 wasn't paticuarly effective as a punter in the backfield.
We currently have a 15 who isn't a running threat, doesn't possess a big boot and doesn't gel with the first choice 10. Despite all of this, said fullback is near undroppable.
It's frankly ridiculous.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks 2023:
We currently have a 15 who isn't a running threat, doesn't possess a big boot and doesn't gel with the first choice 10. Despite all of this, said fullback is near undroppable.
It's frankly ridiculous.
100% this and people who don't see it really are not watching with enough intent.
But the most important people who should be seeing it have their heads up their arse.
carry on nothing to see hear, carry on playing shit it is part of the plan to win the WC. -
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
also this dispels the myth that Barrett is at first receiver 60% of the time lol.
No it doesn't Mounga handled the ball a lot at the back as he dropped back when Barrett went to first receiver
Stats do not tell you the whole picture at all.
If you go by stats totally you get painted a different picture than what happened,
Every Stat is in a particular situation that does not give the full story,Watching the game gives you much more. -
I reckon the senior blokes in this team are capable of lifting - for one big game. And I reckon that means, in your best Eddie Jones voice, look out to whoever we meet in the QF (christ I hope it's Ireland, I'd love to stuff them out of this tournament).
Of course this also means we would get Australia in the SF, and surely, surely, we have a shot of scraping past them???
So now we're in the final, probably with a couple of injuries by now, certainly a bit more spent emotionally - where we will get kicked (literally) to a record defeat by one of England, SA or France
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@Chris said in All Blacks 2023:
@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
also this dispels the myth that Barrett is at first receiver 60% of the time lol.
No it doesn't Mounga handled the ball a lot at the back as he dropped back when Barrett went to first receiver
Stats do not tell you the whole picture at all.
If you go by stats totally you get painted a different picture than what happened,
Every Stat is in a particular situation that does not give the full story,Watching the game gives you much more.everyone knows 63.4% of all stats are made up
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
BB is playing the gameplan... Will Jordan's big weakness is kicking and people want to play him at fullback? I don't follow. The modern-day game is one in the air, by working good competitive kicks, and kicking well for territory.
The hatred towards Barrett these days is a little bit bizarre. People are holding him up to unrealistic standards, watch that game without any knowledge of that New Zealand side, and I'm not really sure you'd come away with fullback as being the big issue.
Lack of punch from the bench, and the majority of our starting forwards, and a poor game from Will Jordan rate is far bigger issues for mine.
Yeah this. Either the gameplan is shit or BB isn't doing a good job of implementing it. If the problem is BB, then replace him with someone who can do a better job. I can't see Jordan filling that role when these are the tactics. Maybe DMac, but he'll also do the hybrid thing. At any rate, who we have at 15 is the least of our worries when the forwards fail to show up.
It kind of reminds me when I first joined TSF way back in 2004. Carlos was having a rough patch with that shitty flat backline experiment and there were strong calls here to get Mehrtens back in. Yeah didn't end well. Same too really with RM being the saviour that wasn't.
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As opposed to asking the question, could the All Blacks win the World Cup based on current evidence, I think we should ask the question, does this side have the capability to win three hard games in a row (because that is what it will be).
I just doesn't seem likely at all. In 2020, we failed to win three games in a row all year.
In 2021, we won our first eight tests of the year against a pack of rubbish sides, then split the leger with the Boks. Beat USA, Wales and Italy, then were resoundingly beaten by Ireland and France.In 2022, there was the aberration vs Ireland, followed by the defeat to SA. We rebounded nicely, then lost to the Argies. Beat them the next week, then needed a get out of jail free card from Uncle Mat to beat the Aussies. We finally seemed to turn a corner, taking down, Aussie, Japan, Wales and a good Scottish side, then capitulated vs England.
This year, won four tests, and credit was fairly awarded, we shouldn't re-write history, but we have rocked up with the heat now on, and we have floundered. I offer a level of defence, because I think some of the criticism of players and the coaches is unfair, but Foster has failed - we could still win the WC of course, but it is just illogical. When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks 2023:
Maybe DMac, but he'll also do the hybrid thing
It's probably too late now but McKenzie/Barrett worked at the start of the year
Mo'unga/Barrett has never worked very well
Also, if you go back a few years Barrett/McKenzie did work. Perhaps it's about the communication styles of individuals
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I've been happy to defend Foster, but the facts are, he has been in the job four years, been given more rope than anyone, despite hardly having scraps to work with, and yet we have turned up to the World Cup with the following issues:
- No backup blindside flanker. Like ffs Ian and company, you've had 40(?) tests since the last World Cup, and you rock up with Frizell and no defined backup. Relying on Blackadder is a fuck up in itself, because he has hardly taken to the field in the last two years. If they weren't going to trust Jacobson, then they needed to bring Ioane or Finau, and with the latter, they should have given him, or another alternative time in the saddle
- A captain who is arguably not the best in his position. The fact that it is arguable is a problem in itself. History won't reflect well on Cane, rightly or wrongly. Ardie Savea was and is an openside flanker who can do a good job at eight. Consistently when the heat goes on, we are left small in the pack. Whether it was Sotutu, or Jacobson, or whoever else, they needed to work on a robust, big bastard to play eight. Savea is awesome, but he isn't an 8... we had an imbalanced loose forward trio four years ago, yet haven't learnt.
- And as briefly mentioned in there, we have a whole schmozzle with number eight. What did Hoskins Sotutu really do wrong? Never really given a chance with the ABs, and then dropped for Jacobson, who I'm not sure they have faith in either. Were they looking at Grace? (Well once again that would be an error, relying on injury-prone Cantabs... hole in Ryan's selections so far)
- The halfback situation... they work four years, looking at different options, and then they get the World Cup year and settle on Finlay Christie. It is laughable. What did Weber ever do wrong? what did Fakatava do wrong? And closer to home, what have they ever seen from Christie himself for the ABs? Given chances last year, didn't take them, and was then dropped. Roigard in limited chances this year (and they have been limited, again a slight on the coaches), has not really put a foot wrong
- No backup second-five. You can argue the cases of Havili and ALB all you like, but the gameplan tweak since we have gone to Barrett at 12, basically means those two aren't options as viable number 12 backups. We need someone who can run hard over everything else. Quite how the coaches can't see that it is so fundamental to their own gameplan is bizarre...
- You can add in the fullback issue if you like, I personally think it is minor, and as I say, is more a criticism of the gameplan.
This probably only scratches the surface...
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@frugby said in All Blacks 2023:
When has a side in such disarray won the WC?
France came close with even more disarray!
