Bastille day truck crash
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="597894" data-time="1468835730">
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<p>Surely we can all agree that some type of reform needs to take place in Islam, at least here in the West. Are prominent Muslims in Western countries doing anything to bring about this change? Could just be the media but I see plenty of blame-shifting and grievances but not a great deal of desire for action or change.</p>
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<p>BTW comparing Islam and Christianity in this day and age is just ridiculous. </p>
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<p>Similarly, comparing how they should reform is equally ridiculous because of the passage of time. Christianity reformed under a certain set of circumstances. Islam can't re-create those circumstances because they're playing in two different eras.</p>
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<p>Christianity in Europe was fairly monolithic at the time; Islam had its major schism pretty much after Muhammad carked it, and then started to fracture further. Got just as many defined sects as Christianity and Judaism now.</p>
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<p>Baron is right in that the first step is critique. I don't agree with mockery, necessarily, but they certainly need to know how to take a joke.</p>
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<p>Critique from outside - and acceptance of it by adherents - is one thing, but the real change has to come from within the Religion itself. Respected figures within the ranks of Islam must start driving this.</p>
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<p>There are a bunch of articles on the web saying Islam <em>cannot</em> be reformed, because it essentially would have to jettison the Quran and Hadith to do so, and therefore no longer be Islam. But that is to deny any religion the ability to change.</p>
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<p>Its not going to happen overnight, that's for sure. Christianity was still a daily thing in the lives of the majority of people a century ago in Australia, and has only dwindled really in the last few decades.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597903" data-time="1468836919">
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<p>You can be linked and inspired by ISIS, even trained by them and still be a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant.</p>
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<p>I think that is probably more likely - was watching a doco here on SBS about a French journalist who infiltrated a group of youths, posing as an extremist. The Dad was a stand up guy who was shocked and ashamed his son would do this (think they moved to France from Turkey?).</p>
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<p>Its not the rule, but a lot of the youths of those fleeing something see it as a goal to return to the old country and fight. Piss and vinegar of youth.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597903" data-time="1468836919">
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<p>Your statement is a false dichotomy. There are other alternatives. <strong><em>You can be linked and inspired by ISIS</em></strong>, even trained by them and still be a 2nd or 3rd generation immigrant.</p>
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<p>Yes, you can. And I never said you couldn't. Indeed my post earlier said you would need to deport 3rd & 2nd generation.</p>
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<p>But my point re this is ISIS only exist because of the failed state. No failed state - no ISIS. Same way if you have an actual functioning government & no occupation in Lebanon - no Hezbollah, in Gaza - no Hamas. In Afghanistan - no AQ, Somalia - no Al Shabab. </p>
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<p>You are, in every single case shouting "ISIS!!!". My point is you remove the failed state, you remove ISIS.</p>
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<p>You can't have both ways, you link every attack to ISIS, but then when told that removing the failed states will help try to say this guy still would have done it & ISIS had no impact on him...</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="597910" data-time="1468838287"><p>I think that is probably more likely - was watching a doco here on SBS about a French journalist who infiltrated a group of youths, posing as an extremist. The Dad was a stand up guy who was shocked and ashamed his son would do this (think they moved to France from Turkey?).<br>
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Its not the rule, but a lot of the youths of those fleeing something see it as a goal to return to the old country and fight. Piss and vinegar of youth.</p></blockquote>Target rich environment -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="597908" data-time="1468838150">
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<p>Similarly, comparing how they should reform is equally ridiculous because of the passage of time. Christianity reformed under a certain set of circumstances. Islam can't re-create those circumstances because they're playing in two different eras.</p>
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<p>Christianity in Europe was fairly monolithic at the time; Islam had its major schism pretty much after Muhammad carked it, and then started to fracture further. Got just as many defined sects as Christianity and Judaism now.</p>
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<p>Baron is right in that the first step is critique. I don't agree with mockery, necessarily, but they certainly need to know how to take a joke.</p>
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<p>Critique from outside - and acceptance of it by adherents - is one thing, but the real change has to come from within the Religion itself. Respected figures within the ranks of Islam must start driving this.</p>
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<p>There are a bunch of articles on the web saying Islam <em>cannot</em> be reformed, because it essentially would have to jettison the Quran and Hadith to do so, and therefore no longer be Islam. But that is to deny any religion the ability to change.</p>
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<p>Its not going to happen overnight, that's for sure. Christianity was still a daily thing in the lives of the majority of people a century ago in Australia, and has only dwindled really in the last few decades.</p>
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<p>I never compared how they should reform I asked if there were respected figures within the ranks of Islam who were driving change. As mentioned, I see little to no evidence that that is occurring in the West. Plenty of blame, plenty of concern about reprisals that never occur, but no movement willing to stand up and bring Islam into modern times.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="597866" data-time="1468832008">
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<p>Yup, and right now Islam is the gigantic dick that impacts my lifetime the most.</p>
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<p>Genuinely curious in this "impacts my lifetime" bit. How?</p>
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<p>But NQ I may be misinterpreting this as "impacts my life" or "impacts my lifestyle"</p>
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<p>However perhaps the tenet is the same- how does a religion you are not part of impact your life?</p> -
<p>I think it's education of the subsequent generations (the kids) that spells the death knell of religions.</p>
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<p>Not critique or mockery or any outsiders calling it all hogwash (actually think those tactics prove counterproductive to any argument involving human beliefs)</p>
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<p>I also think it's why the religious state leaders go out of their way to make sure the kids aren't exposed to proper education. I've lived and taught in countries where that very much is the case.</p>
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<p>THAT'S the the reason religion is waning in developed countries <u>and</u> standing in a developed country and pointing to less developed countries and saying "you should be more like us" is total folly </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597881" data-time="1468834437">
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<p>No it is not spurious logic as it is resisting the demand to prove a negative which is a logical fallacy. He killed scores of people and ISIS have stated that he worked for them, the authorities have said he was radicalised. The onus is on those claiming he was not a Muslim and not working for ISIS to prove it, not the the way around.</p>
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<p>You have not proved he was anything yet. No one has. But because some twitter feed says he is, he is. My twitter feed says you get excited every time those dumb horses run around the pitch. Prove you don't!</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597884" data-time="1468834701">
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<p>Which instructions from Jesus were the Crusaders following? </p>
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<p>Luke chapter 19 verse 27, Jesus says "but those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me"</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="597858" data-time="1468830435">
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<p>Well, not quite. The key difference being mentally ill people don't all follow a book that specifically states to kill anyone that is not mentally ill. If all of those millions of Muslim's have read the Koran then they would have to entertain the thought as that is <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://takimag.com/article/10_violent_koran_verses_and_the_terror_they_spawned_gavin_mcinnes/print#axzz4EkKL9Y1q'>exactly </a>what it says to do. Thankfully most in the West choose to ignore those (many) parts of it. In the Middle East... not so much. I'd hate to see the bloodshed if you opened a gay nightclub in a Middle Eastern country. ISIS didn't behead all those people for "shock" value. They beheaded those people because that is <em>exactly</em> what it says to do in the Koran. Those Middle Eastern countries are fucking awful places. Similar to Western countries...500+ years ago.</p>
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<p>When people are following an ideology to the letter then you cannot just ignore that ideology as the cause/motivation of their attacks.</p>
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<p>Yup. Here we go again. Yet <u>another</u> mass murder committed in the name of Islam. It just doesn't end does it?</p>
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<p>I have an idea. The next time a mass murder is committed in the name of Christianity, let's make a thread about it and discuss it.</p>
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<p>righto, all muslims have entertained the thought of mass murder. do you seriously think that?</p>
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<p>if the middle east 'not so much' ignores the murder the infidel bits, all us tourists have been incredibly fortunate walking among those millions of people who mostly wanted to kill us every day. i am quite intimidating though i suppose.</p>
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<p>i think it is worth bringing up christian africa. uganda in 2014 with their 'kill the gays' bill, for example. to be fair they did take the death penalty bit out, eventually, but i'm still not sure they'd warm to the proposed nightclub. and that's from the 'moderate' christians, joseph kony wasn't too keen on them at all. not the best bloke joseph. rwanda? i'm sure you've heard stories already. south sudan right now, bit messy, 300 dead the other day. and, since you're interested in christian massacres (of muslims) - the central african republic, they've been pretty hot for that the last few years. that won't get a thread though, in fact it won't even make the news.</p>
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<p>poverty, lack of education, cheapening of human life. very few people raised in peaceful places with basic needs met and a good science-based education are going to be stupid/naive enough to believe in literal following of an ancient book, (which i assume is) similar to the bible in that it is clearly not literally true.</p>
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<p>note, as usual, i am not defending islam.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="597913" data-time="1468838816">
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<p>I never compared how they should reform I asked if there were respected figures within the ranks of Islam who were driving change. As mentioned, I see little to no evidence that that is occurring in the West. Plenty of blame, plenty of concern about reprisals that never occur, but no movement willing to stand up and bring Islam into modern times.</p>
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<p>There are huge numbers of respected Muslim leaders doing this, the issue would be you will never have heard of them because its not news, and because of where they are starting from they are easy to attack. EG if you went back to when Christianity started reforming you'd have mainstream christians killing unbelievers & "moderates" saying "don't kill them, they can live here, but not vote".</p>
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<p>Same in modern Islam, to western morality the moderates sound extreme. We want them to go from current Islam to western morals tomorrow, ignoring that any Imam preaching that will have zero joy. We'd like a Imam to stand up in Saudi & go "women should have equal rights!" but he would acheive zero as no one would listen to him & he'd get chucked out.</p>
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<p>Muhammed Khatami is technically a moderate, and has moved Iran a lot more into the moderate Islam area, his career has been a tight rope walk between steering islam towards a more moderate path & not getting impeached & killed. But he has succeeded in getting a lot of moderate stuff through. If you went to Iran 20 years ago & then again now the difference is staggering. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="597881" data-time="1468834437">
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<p>No it is not spurious logic as it is resisting the demand to prove a negative which is a logical fallacy. He killed scores of people and ISIS have stated that he worked for them, the authorities have said he was radicalised. The onus is on those claiming he was not a Muslim and not working for ISIS to prove it, not the the way around.</p>
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<p>thinking that proving a negative is a logical fallacy is a logical fallacy.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Gary" data-cid="597931" data-time="1468843371"><p>
Luke chapter 19 verse 27, Jesus says "but those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me"</p></blockquote>
I believe BSG asked for an example of an instruction.<br><br>
This was a line from a parable, quoting a character therein. Not an instruction from the Hippy.<br><br>
Context.<br><br>
Google is your friend.<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-minas.html">http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-minas.html</a> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="597955" data-time="1468862309"><p>
I believe BSG asked for an example of an instruction.<br><br>
This was a line from a parable, quoting a character therein. Not an instruction from the Hippy.<br><br>
Context.<br><br>
Google is your friend.<br><br><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-minas.html">http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-minas.html</a></p></blockquote>
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Are you guys really going to argue about who's made up fairy tales say what? Seems pointless to me. It's all nonsense.<br><br>
Anyway life goes on here Sarkozy doing his best trump impersonation saying all radicals will be deported if he wins election. Yeah they have mostly been French nationals Nick so good luck with that. -
<p>That's it there isn't it mooshld? Some fluffybunny like Sarkozy jumping all over some shit and making up some nonsensical rubbish. Welcome back to the 1930's</p>
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<p>Next you get the far right extremists all tooled up ad looking for aggro who give a few "fucking towel heads" a kicking, maybe burn a mosque or two and suddenly it's not ISIS who are the enemy its every fucking Muslim, or someone who maybe looks like a Muslim.</p>
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<p>and as it escalates and a vapid French government tries to keep control, the housing projects start to burn and suddenly its 6 million enemies of France and ISIS is radicalising tens of thousands</p>
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<p>Because so much of what forms peoples opinions on all sides is utter cant and Farcebook posturing. It's a grim prospect but one I can see happening if it all falls the wrong way. </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mooshld" data-cid="597959" data-time="1468867648"><p>
Are you guys really going to argue about who's made up fairy tales say what? Seems pointless to me. It's all nonsense.<br><br>
Anyway life goes on here Sarkozy doing his best trump impersonation saying all radicals will be deported if he wins election. Yeah they have mostly been French nationals Nick so good luck with that.</p></blockquote>
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Hey I'm not really in this argument but I did want to check the context of the quote by Gary.<br><br>
If you're going to state something as evidence make sure it is. I can't comment on what the Koran/Quran or Haddith or whatever Islam's book says. I'm not necessariky backing BSG or attacking Islam. I suppose I could google some context in the Quran if given specific references. It's really easy to look up "Luke 19:27".<br><br>
Also given my upbringing in an essentislly Christian county (i know many of "you guys" hate that reference but Western European culture is rooted in Christianity) and therefore a vague knowledge of how the Old and New Testaments work I have a starting point to go the google.<br><br>
So don't give the "you guys" line. I was only pointing out bullshit. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="597932" data-time="1468843593">
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<p>righto, all muslims have entertained the thought of mass murder. do you seriously think that?</p>
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<p>if the middle east 'not so much' ignores the murder the infidel bits, all us tourists have been incredibly fortunate walking among those millions of people who mostly wanted to kill us every day. i am quite intimidating though i suppose.</p>
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<p>Think you misinterpreted what I said there. I didn't say everyone in Middle Eastern countries practise the 'murder all infidels' part (though many there do), I said they don't so much ignore all the bad stuff. Hence my example about a gay nightclub.</p>
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<p>And yes, if something is explicitaly written in the Koran telling them what to do, they have to think about it. Whether it's "Great idea!" or "errrm I'll just pretend I didn't see that" they still had to think about it. It's a nasty piece of work.</p>
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<p>i think it is worth bringing up christian africa. uganda in 2014 with their 'kill the gays' bill, for example. to be fair they did take the death penalty bit out, eventually, but i'm still not sure they'd warm to the proposed nightclub. and that's from the 'moderate' christians, joseph kony wasn't too keen on them at all. not the best bloke joseph. rwanda? i'm sure you've heard stories already. south sudan right now, bit messy, 300 dead the other day. and, since you're interested in christian massacres (of muslims) - the central african republic, they've been pretty hot for that the last few years. that won't get a thread though, in fact it won't even make the news.</p>
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<p>poverty, lack of education, cheapening of human life. very few people raised in peaceful places with basic needs met and a good science-based education are going to be stupid/naive enough to believe in literal following of an ancient book, (which i assume is) similar to the bible in that it is clearly not literally true.</p>
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<p>note, as usual, i am not defending islam.</p>
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<p>Is it worth bringing up Chrstian Africa? That may need another thread. One that isn't dedicated to an attack by an Islamic fundamentalist. I don't disagree with anything you say there, in fact you are kind of making my point by bringing it up. Christianity is also a shitty religion - you are happy to call it out as shitty even though not all Chrstians are like that. But when I call out Islam I get "BUT NOT ALL MUSLIMS!!". They're both shitty, regardless of how people choose to follow them. And if people follow them to the letter, then they are the cause of that, because that is how they are meant to be followed. Even if not everybody follows them to the letter.</p>
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<p>Further to this, the people that pick and choose which parts of a religion to follow <em>really </em>grate me. Either follow it or don't, stop fucking around pretending to be religious so you can claim to be holier then thou while not actually doing what your holy book says. Those are the people that need to stop validating these religions.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="597917" data-time="1468839794">
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<p>Genuinely curious in this "impacts my lifetime" bit. How?</p>
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<p>But NQ I may be misinterpreting this as "impacts my life" or "impacts my lifestyle"</p>
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<p>However perhaps the tenet is the same- how does a religion you are not part of impact your life?</p>
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<p>I live in a western country and have dual citizenship meaning I move between NZ and Europe. I don't want to go back to Europe right now. Why? Because Islamic fundamentalists are committing mass murder more and more regularly. So yes, it impacts my life.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="597919" data-time="1468840240">
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<p>I think it's education of the subsequent generations (the kids) that spells the death knell of religions.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Not critique or mockery or any outsiders calling it all hogwash (actually think those tactics prove counterproductive to any argument involving human beliefs)</p>
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<p>I also think it's why the religious state leaders go out of their way to make sure the kids aren't exposed to proper education. I've lived and taught in countries where that very much is the case.</p>
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<p>THAT'S the the reason religion is waning in developed countries <u>and</u> standing in a developed country and pointing to less developed countries and saying "you should be more like us" is total folly </p>
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<p>Of course science-based education is key. So is being able to criticise bad ideas, because criticising bad ideas is the basis of science. Appeasing religion because we are scared of offending people is just slowing the whole process down.</p>