Foster, Robertson etc
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Opinion and conjecture are great - as is talking shit. It's why we're all here, I guess.
What I think pisses people off a bit is opinion (e.g. on the abilities of the folks who pick the AB coach) being presented as truth, and conjecture & hypothesis being regarded as sacrosanct facts - often being used for personal attacks or hero-worship of one coach, player or another.
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
heard a soundbite on the radio this morning from David Moffat with a simple message to Mark Robinson over this debacle..."Leave"
@Bovidae has summed this up perfectly.
Rent a quote failed CEO.
Not NZ's worst CEO only because David Rutherford.
Robinson not even in the conversation.
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@ARHS said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew but it's only Thursday in Wales? Who is Robinson? But seriously, I hope Joe Schmidt puts his name forward.
Now I'm confused. I thought people were saying Schmidt doesn't want it?
He does seem loyal to Foster.
But why can't we know who the candidates are? Are they precious wallflowers? Is it commercially dangerous (to their current or potential roles) to know who is applying?Why do you need to know?
Flagging to future prospectiv employers who else has turned you down in the past isn't something you would do so why is rugby different?
Aside from that it just feeds the media and boards like this with ammo to make their own judgements without the facts.
That is TOTALLY not what I meant.
In 2020 we at least knew there was a process and X candidates (who appeared to be given a set time to apply). If I recall correctly, we knew some of the applicants at the time therefore one assumes candidates could say if they were applying (or not).
Now we don't know if there is a process, if people are genuinely interviewed and the whole process is a farce.
I'm not asking peope who failed to be selected as AB coach then should be named now, or even if the public should know who is applying. I'm just suggesting some consistency would be preferable for most concerned (and I don't know why the NZR are acting as they do but perhaps they have their reasons).
If you think the 2019/2020 process is the same as it is now, or this current process is superior, bully for you. But I don't see any discernible progress and it being a free country I'm voicing my opinion. -
@booboo said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Jesus's. I'm 100 posts behind in a day. Did I miss anything important?
Not really.
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat you can take those results into consideration but surely cant base it purely on win rate...the players Razor has at his disposal would be better to a man than the japanese national team
Didn't Razor do a bit of rebuilding after those halycon Todd Blackadder days?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
But why can't we know who the candidates are? Are they precious wallflowers? Is it commercially dangerous (to their current or potential roles) to know who is applying?
It's because of commercial sensitivity/confidentiality issues - just like every multi-million dollar business on planet Earth.
Well at least we knew how many were applying in 2019/2020
NZR only interviewing Kiwi coaches for All Blacks job
The next All Black coach will not be a foreigner, according to New Zealand Rugby chairman Brent Impey.
Blocking out foreigners and Hansen giving what looks like a Hitler salute. Coincidence?
In all seriousness, what foreigners would have been considered? What a complete nothing statement.
But would NZ rugby fans care so much now if a really decent foreign coach was considered?
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@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Now we don't know if there is a process, if people are genuinely interviewed and the whole process is a farce.
The only way the public would know - and to stop media speculation and conspiracy theories - would be if NZR made the whole process public. They aren't going to do that any more than any other business organisation. That doesn't mean their PR & People Management shouldn't be critiqued though.
I'm not asking peope who failed to be selected as AB coach then should be named now, or even if the public should know who is applying. I'm just suggesting some consistency would be preferable for most concerned (and I don't know why the NZR are acting as they do but perhaps they have their reasons).
Consistency in what? Genuine question. If you're talking about clarity on picking the new coach, I'd agree. But perhaps they have made a conscious decision not to respond in light of previous media frenzies?
If you think the 2019/2020 process is the same as it is now, or this current process is superior, bully for you. But I don't see any discernible progress and it being a free country I'm voicing my opinion.
Absolutely. And NZR has a similar right to run their employment processes in a way they feel is best. Personally, I think the way they have handled Foster and tried to hang him out to dry has been appalling - probably other coaches too
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@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
But why can't we know who the candidates are? Are they precious wallflowers? Is it commercially dangerous (to their current or potential roles) to know who is applying?
It's because of commercial sensitivity/confidentiality issues - just like every multi-million dollar business on planet Earth.
Well at least we knew how many were applying in 2019/2020
NZR only interviewing Kiwi coaches for All Blacks job
The next All Black coach will not be a foreigner, according to New Zealand Rugby chairman Brent Impey.
Blocking out foreigners and Hansen giving what looks like a Hitler salute. Coincidence?
In all seriousness, what foreigners would have been considered? What a complete nothing statement.
But would NZ rugby fans care so much now if a really decent foreign coach was considered?
We'd have to start somewhere as a test to find out. Say with our much loved Sevens team ...
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@Victor-Meldrew To me it reads as a person with a strongly held opinion on a topic is annoyed that other people are disagreeing with him. That happens to me all the time, because I have strong opinions, but I don't go round calling my opponents "arrogant" for it.
This is not Kremlinology, where the people involved are secretive and the decisions made opaque and trying to work out what is happening is all guesswork.
We are discussing decisions made by people with long track records, who explain their thoughts on national media. In a country small enough that many of us actually know some of them.
We all know by now that NZR is a train wreck as an organisation, and I seriously think the Fern -- in this instance -- would have managed this whole thing better than it has. So I'm not going to defer to the NZR as being experts. They have blown that long ago.
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@Chester-Draws said in Foster, Robertson etc:
We all know by now that NZR is a train wreck as an organisation,
Do we? Isn't that just an opinion?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chester-Draws said in Foster, Robertson etc:
We all know by now that NZR is a train wreck as an organisation,
Do we? Isn't that just an opinion?
We know how bad the board is with their decisions: directly approaching Australian super sides, the early reappointment of Foster, etc.
The organisation seems to follow behind. But it's an opinion, kinda like gravity
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@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
The organisation seems to follow behind. But it's an opinion, kinda like gravity
I sense the gravitational pull is dependent on who you want as AB coach...
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Did no-one notice the massive disaster that was the Black Ferns? Saved only by having Wayne Smith available. Without him our "home" world cup would likely have been an epic disaster.
Did the dance around the Silver Lake deal, that was done, then undone, then done again go un-noticed?
For a while there even our Sevens teams were struggling.
We've managed to lose South Africa from Super Rugby in the last couple of years too. Not that Australia are very happy with us either.
Anyone want to tell me how awesome grass-roots rugby is going in NZ at the moment?
In what sphere does anyone think NZR has done well in the last five years?
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@Chester-Draws NZR did instigate a pretty brutal review of the women’s game and reacted accordingly afterwards.
Yes, they dropped the ball in the first place but they also did the repairs -
Still only opinion. And blaming on-field performance on NZR or coaching ignores the improvement across the board on other countries.
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@Crucial always easier to fix something you broke than do the work to ensure it doesnt break
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@taniwharugby said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial always easier to fix something you broke than do the work to ensure it doesnt break
I’m not letting them off the hook at all. The treated the women’s game very poorly and ruined a coach as well as a team
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Still only opinion. And blaming on-field performance on NZR or coaching ignores the improvement across the board on other countries.
Weren't you one of the few on here trying to claim previous coaches did worse despite Foster's record being the worst of the professional-era?
The Wayne Smith era was up against a Wallabies team that was a once-in-a-generation GOAT side and the Boks were also very very good. Also the Poms had their dad's army side under Woodward and they were also bloody good. This current mob was getting beat by teams that weren't even as good as them.
Also Wayne Smith was just 42, had only been coaching professionally for 3 years when he took over ABs in 2000, he also didn't have a backroom staff (apart from Tony Gilbert) & it's highlighted in Oliver's book how Wayne had to stay up to the early hours of the morning pouring over analysis because they didn't have any analysts either (unlike Mitchell, Henry, etc. afterwards).
So Smith clearly had to juggle a lot more responsibilities as AB's head coach than Foster did, Smith also coached both attack and defense - in addition to head coach & team analyst. In contrast Foster at 54, (12 years on Smith in 2000) with a complete team of backroom staff (including analysts) and with 18 years of prior coaching should've had the necessary experience & knowledge to succeed by then - however he didn't.
Wayne Smith had very legitimate excuses for his OK record at the time, Foster simply didn't.
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@kiwi_expat you have just excused other refs based on their opponents being “once in a lifetime “ versions but are happy to ignore an Irish side that has never been anywhere near as good and France side like we haven’t seen in a long time. Argentina also playing at peak levels.
Can’t have it both ways
