Foster, Robertson etc

Chris

@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:

I was rather hoping Joseph was interested when they appointed Foster because I think Brown has exciting backlines but I am beginning to wonder if Joseph-Brown would work best with the ABs (there seem to teams they naturally fit better with, i.e., they seem to do particularly well improving teams that worked hard but not very creatively) and secondly I'd prefer a coach doing well in NZ over one doing well internationally, otherwise there is little incentive to stay here.
I understand the NZR perspective, and yes international experience is great, but it has to be balanced with growing the coaching pool here AND retaining coaching IP (if there is such a thing).
Seems to me the coaching drain is as bad or worse than the player drain and quite a few coaches seem to have a golden patch then get found out or go stale.

Yep agree with what you say.
For me the international experience line trotted out is a bit of a Red Herring.
Every coach to go on to an international coaching job has come from a lower tier of coaching somewhere in their career.
And many have stepped up that is where your next pool of international coaches come from the tiers below.
if international experience was the be all of being an international coach then the same pool of coaches will just be recycled around the international teams.
Where does the fresh ideas,Coaching philosophies,a fresh voice come from that is like re cycling the same 30 players in the AB's for 30 years regardless of form.
To be a HC you have to be a different beast to an assistant coach it is a tough gig.

Kiwiwomble

@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Crucial I think most people see the cold hard evidence in front of their eyes and say, " Fozzie is the wrong person at the wrong time. What are the alternatives? Razor? OK, give him a go cos it can't get any worse".
Some posters, "Razor is not a messiah".
Most people, "Wait!? What?"

that is 100% what i was thinking but couldn't think how to word it, thinking razor would be better than fozzie is not the same as saying razor is perfect

Frank

@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:

I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.

No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems

Has anybody said he will fix all the problems?
Posters calling for Razor just want the guy with the best record.
Not too much to ask.

Crucial

@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:

I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.

No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems

Has anybody said he will fix all the problems?
Posters calling for Razor just want the guy with the best record.
Not too much to ask.

Best Super Record or proven international record?

Crucial

@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:

Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.

Did he just carry the water in that gig?

canefan

@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:

Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.

Did he just carry the water in that gig?

Big difference between an AC and a HC. My concern was he wouldn't be able to implement new ideas after our failure in Japan. I wasn't alone

Kiwiwomble

@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:

Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.

Did he just carry the water in that gig?

even if we concede shags record as partially fozzies....has the last three years not undermined that at all? so he got his shot...and has not done great....so fozzie aside (because expecting him to suddenly become good would be optimistic to say the least).....who gets the job

Crucial

@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:

Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.

Did he just carry the water in that gig?

even if we concede shags record as partially fozzies....has the last three years not undermined that at all? so he got his shot...and has not done great....so fozzie aside (because expecting him to suddenly become good would be optimistic to say the least).....who get the job

And that's the part we aren't privy to. Is Razor with an awesome Super record or Joseph with a team that has shown an ability to punch above their weight on the international stage?
Comes down to their 'vision' and plan.
I's be asking some tough questions of both.

Kiwiwomble

@Crucial fair enough, i think people have their preferences but i dont think too many people will be mad if JJ gets the gig over Razor or vice versa

kiwi_expat

@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:

Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.

Did he just carry the water in that gig?

even if we concede shags record as partially fozzies....has the last three years not undermined that at all? so he got his shot...and has not done great....so fozzie aside (because expecting him to suddenly become good would be optimistic to say the least).....who get the job

And that's the part we aren't privy to. Is Razor with an awesome Super record or Joseph with a team that has shown an ability to punch above their weight on the international stage?
Comes down to their 'vision' and plan.
I's be asking some tough questions of both.

Is international experience relevant if you aren't improving? Japan have been on a gradual decline since Jones left and with the exception of 2 matches (in which they'd targeted for years & had 9 months of national camp to singularly prepare for, as Top League finished in January 2019) Joseph has not exactly achieved much of note.

It also stands that Joseph's 53% record isn't as good as Jones' 67% record with Japan. It appears that Joseph's international experience (by default) makes him a better candidate than Razor in many people's eyes.

just a quick reminder 9 world cups - 7 won by coaches with no international experience.

canefan

For me it's Razor's record, his reputed methods in terms of giving his players defined roles complementary to the team. Not to mention that his assistant for years, a guy he helped develop, has taken to test footy like a duck to water. He knows the players in NZ, he seems like a players' coach, nothing will get lost in translation. Of course it remains to see if he can select a team that appeals to the Fern

Frank

@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:

Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.

Did he just carry the water in that gig?

even if we concede shags record as partially fozzies....has the last three years not undermined that at all? so he got his shot...and has not done great....so fozzie aside (because expecting him to suddenly become good would be optimistic to say the least).....who get the job

And that's the part we aren't privy to. Is Razor with an awesome Super record or Joseph with a team that has shown an ability to punch above their weight on the international stage?
Comes down to their 'vision' and plan.
I's be asking some tough questions of both.

Is international experience relevant if you aren't improving? Japan have been on a gradual decline since Jones left and with the exception of 2 matches (in which they'd targeted for years & had 9 months of national camp to singularly prepare for, as Top League finished in January 2019) Joseph has not exactly achieved much of note.

It also stands that Joseph's 53% record isn't as good as Jones' 67% record with Japan. It appears that Joseph's international experience (by default) makes him a better candidate than Razor in many people's eyes.

just a quick reminder 9 world cups - 7 won by coaches with no international experience.

BUT DOES RAZOR HAVE INTERNATIONAL EXPERIENCE????????????????????????????????????????????????

Victor Meldrew

There’s actually some good discussion on this thread on how NZR chooses the AB coach, the effectiveness of the coaching set-up up and changes required. But fuck me, some of the logic being used here is truly weird to the point of glorious, surreal satire:

Foster must take the blame for losses and everything wrong with the team. When things go well for the team it’s down to someone, anyone, else.
Foster’s time & experience as Assistant is irrelevant as Assistant coaches don’t have much input. The improvement in the ABs since Bokke I is down to Ryan and Schmidt being appointed Assistant coaches.
There's no advantage in having international experience in coaching international rugby as there's no difference between Test Rugby and Super Rugby. When any SR player fails to make the grade at Test level that's because Foster is a shit coach. Players like George Bridge or Jamie MacKintosh doesn’t exist.
If predictions that Foster's ABs are going to be thumped don't come true and the AB's win well, it's because the opposition, who were going to put the final nail in Foster’s coaching career, were actually not all that good anyway.
Hearing something from a bloke in the pub or coffee bar is absolute truth. Any pro-Foster comments by players or officials in the media are lies or part of a conspiracy to keep Foster in his job. Querying the provenance of pub conversations proves you are an ignorant Foster supporter
When Foster said he wanted Schmidt as Assistant it was an admission he wasn't up to the job. When Schmidt joined the coaching staff it was forced on Foster.
Players who speak out in support of Foster obviously haven't been coached by a decent coach like Robertson. Those who have, like Whitelock and Mo'unga, are only saying that to keep being selected by Foster.
Without having coached a single Test, Scott Robertson is the best Test coach in the world right now (that was actually said).
NZR fucked up and Foster should have been sacked after 2 years (valid point) as he was obviously not up to the job. NZR should give his replacement at least 4 years before reviewing results as Foster had 4 years in the job
Foster is shit and we aren’t going to with the RWC or get close. If we win or get to the Final, then the RWC doesn’t matter.

.

An all-time classic Fern thread

Kiwiwomble

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:

Without having coached a single Test, Scott Robertson is the best Test coach in the world right now (that was actually said).

by who?

Frank

@Victor-Meldrew
And particularly notable for the pomposity of a couple of posters viewing themselves as the voices of reason missing the forest for the trees.

Victor Meldrew

@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:

Without having coached a single Test, Scott Robertson is the best Test coach in the world right now (that was actually said).

by who?

Facts? You trying to wreck the thread?

Bones

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:

@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:

Without having coached a single Test, Scott Robertson is the best Test coach in the world right now (that was actually said).

by who?

Facts? You trying to wreck the thread?