Foster, Robertson etc
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You cant beat a good coaching record over a decent period of time
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@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I totally get that maybe Razor would do a better job than Foster. I am pointing out that it wont be the massive turnaround some think it will.
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
I for one have no idea if the AB's will get a massive turnaround under Razor or any other coach .
But it has to be better than the Foster reign which has been a massive messy shit feast from results, poor selections,sacking assistant coaches and a bleat in the media about keeping his Job under what sort of criteria as HC he is thinking he is good enough to go another 4 years. -
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
Exactly how I read it Crucial!
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@Crucial I think most people see the cold hard evidence in front of their eyes and say, " Fozzie is the wrong person at the wrong time. What are the alternatives? Razor? OK, give him a go cos it can't get any worse".
Some posters, "Razor is not a messiah".
Most people, "Wait!? What?" -
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
But who is saying that I certainly have not and I can not remember other posters saying he will fix all problems.
You have invented that opinion yourself. -
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
I haven't read that take from anyone here, or is Canerbry back? Most people, by my reckoning, just think Razor deserves a shot based on his record. Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag. Considering how we went out in 2019, I don't think the pessimism was unreasonable or unwarranted
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I was rather hoping Joseph was interested when they appointed Foster because I think Brown has exciting backlines but I am beginning to wonder if Joseph-Brown would work best with the ABs (there seem to teams they naturally fit better with, i.e., they seem to do particularly well improving teams that worked hard but not very creatively) and secondly I'd prefer a coach doing well in NZ over one doing well internationally, otherwise there is little incentive to stay here.
I understand the NZR perspective, and yes international experience is great, but it has to be balanced with growing the coaching pool here AND retaining coaching IP (if there is such a thing).
Seems to me the coaching drain is as bad or worse than the player drain and quite a few coaches seem to have a golden patch then get found out or go stale. -
@nostrildamus said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I was rather hoping Joseph was interested when they appointed Foster because I think Brown has exciting backlines but I am beginning to wonder if Joseph-Brown would work best with the ABs (there seem to teams they naturally fit better with, i.e., they seem to do particularly well improving teams that worked hard but not very creatively) and secondly I'd prefer a coach doing well in NZ over one doing well internationally, otherwise there is little incentive to stay here.
I understand the NZR perspective, and yes international experience is great, but it has to be balanced with growing the coaching pool here AND retaining coaching IP (if there is such a thing).
Seems to me the coaching drain is as bad or worse than the player drain and quite a few coaches seem to have a golden patch then get found out or go stale.Yep agree with what you say.
For me the international experience line trotted out is a bit of a Red Herring.
Every coach to go on to an international coaching job has come from a lower tier of coaching somewhere in their career.
And many have stepped up that is where your next pool of international coaches come from the tiers below.
if international experience was the be all of being an international coach then the same pool of coaches will just be recycled around the international teams.
Where does the fresh ideas,Coaching philosophies,a fresh voice come from that is like re cycling the same 30 players in the AB's for 30 years regardless of form.
To be a HC you have to be a different beast to an assistant coach it is a tough gig. -
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial I think most people see the cold hard evidence in front of their eyes and say, " Fozzie is the wrong person at the wrong time. What are the alternatives? Razor? OK, give him a go cos it can't get any worse".
Some posters, "Razor is not a messiah".
Most people, "Wait!? What?"that is 100% what i was thinking but couldn't think how to word it, thinking razor would be better than fozzie is not the same as saying razor is perfect
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
Has anybody said he will fix all the problems?
Posters calling for Razor just want the guy with the best record.
Not too much to ask. -
@Frank said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I think you called Razor the Messiah everyone thinks he is, that is a bit of a potshot at Razor.
No, it's a potshot at those that think he will fix all problems
Has anybody said he will fix all the problems?
Posters calling for Razor just want the guy with the best record.
Not too much to ask.Best Super Record or proven international record?
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.
Did he just carry the water in that gig?
Big difference between an AC and a HC. My concern was he wouldn't be able to implement new ideas after our failure in Japan. I wasn't alone
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@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.
Did he just carry the water in that gig?
even if we concede shags record as partially fozzies....has the last three years not undermined that at all? so he got his shot...and has not done great....so fozzie aside (because expecting him to suddenly become good would be optimistic to say the least).....who gets the job
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.
Did he just carry the water in that gig?
even if we concede shags record as partially fozzies....has the last three years not undermined that at all? so he got his shot...and has not done great....so fozzie aside (because expecting him to suddenly become good would be optimistic to say the least).....who get the job
And that's the part we aren't privy to. Is Razor with an awesome Super record or Joseph with a team that has shown an ability to punch above their weight on the international stage?
Comes down to their 'vision' and plan.
I's be asking some tough questions of both. -
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.
Did he just carry the water in that gig?
even if we concede shags record as partially fozzies....has the last three years not undermined that at all? so he got his shot...and has not done great....so fozzie aside (because expecting him to suddenly become good would be optimistic to say the least).....who get the job
And that's the part we aren't privy to. Is Razor with an awesome Super record or Joseph with a team that has shown an ability to punch above their weight on the international stage?
Comes down to their 'vision' and plan.
I's be asking some tough questions of both.Is international experience relevant if you aren't improving? Japan have been on a gradual decline since Jones left and with the exception of 2 matches (in which they'd targeted for years & had 9 months of national camp to singularly prepare for, as Top League finished in January 2019) Joseph has not exactly achieved much of note.
It also stands that Joseph's 53% record isn't as good as Jones' 67% record with Japan. It appears that Joseph's international experience (by default) makes him a better candidate than Razor in many people's eyes.
just a quick reminder 9 world cups - 7 won by coaches with no international experience.
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For me it's Razor's record, his reputed methods in terms of giving his players defined roles complementary to the team. Not to mention that his assistant for years, a guy he helped develop, has taken to test footy like a duck to water. He knows the players in NZ, he seems like a players' coach, nothing will get lost in translation. Of course it remains to see if he can select a team that appeals to the Fern
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Foster didn't have any record to speak of, he just had his time as an assistant to Shag.
Did he just carry the water in that gig?
even if we concede shags record as partially fozzies....has the last three years not undermined that at all? so he got his shot...and has not done great....so fozzie aside (because expecting him to suddenly become good would be optimistic to say the least).....who get the job
And that's the part we aren't privy to. Is Razor with an awesome Super record or Joseph with a team that has shown an ability to punch above their weight on the international stage?
Comes down to their 'vision' and plan.
I's be asking some tough questions of both.Is international experience relevant if you aren't improving? Japan have been on a gradual decline since Jones left and with the exception of 2 matches (in which they'd targeted for years & had 9 months of national camp to singularly prepare for, as Top League finished in January 2019) Joseph has not exactly achieved much of note.
It also stands that Joseph's 53% record isn't as good as Jones' 67% record with Japan. It appears that Joseph's international experience (by default) makes him a better candidate than Razor in many people's eyes.
just a quick reminder 9 world cups - 7 won by coaches with no international experience.
BUT DOES RAZOR HAVE INTERNATIONAL EXPERIENCE????????????????????????????????????????????????
