Foster, Robertson etc
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
And had the ABs top job taken from him because of a perceived lack of conviction and confidence
...and one of the greatest coaches we've seen. Players rave about him. Point was that you don't have to hold yourself out to be infallible.
True but if you don't maybe you can lose your Job.
Some guys obviously portray confidence more than others.
Not necessarily a reflection of ability
I never said it reflected ability.I have meet some right tools who believe they are everything to the universe but are just useless.
But everyone follows someone who is confident than someone lacking it.
A few Wars have started that way.I know what you said. And I'm agreeing with you. Nothing wrong with being confident, based on the you trophies and the work of his assistant on the current AB setup I'd say Razor has the skills to back it up
Ok miss read your post.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble I really wasn't comparing Razor to Foster per se. Just pointing out his CV was lighter than it is now. Super Rugby wasn't as strong as it had been previously. Crusaders beat the Lions twice and Jaguares - two of the weaker finalists IMO.
In 2019, Jaguares 23 that played the final were all internationals, only 2 guys on the bench are now ex-Pumas.
Razor's 2019 results with merely a club team:
49-17 (Buenos Aires) 19-3 (Chch)
Foster's results with All Blacks against the same players:
15-25, 36-0, 18-25, 52-3. 2/4 wins is quite simply embarrassing.
So you're saying Cheika is a better coach than Robertson?
Sign him up.
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
I'm not sure I follow on that. He's a head coach and sees that as his role, I can't see how it would be good for him or the head coach to go in as assistant. He's going to have his tenure judged on someone else's results and have nowhere near the control he might need to perform as he knows how.
I mean, who's to say he wouldn't have gone the way of Plumtree?
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@Chris There really was nothing special about that team haha. Rieko was about 12 years old, we never had a 9/10 back then, a very bad tight 5 excluding Faumuina as Tuipulotu and Tu'ungafasi were still a bit raw back then, Kaino was over the hill, Moala was a winger playing 12 lol, SBW played about 5 games that year and we couldn't defend a rolling maul to save our lives.
Yes we had a couple of good players in that side, but the bad definitely outweighed the good in that side lol, we were easily the worst out of the NZ teams back then on paper and with the results, and just relied on Akira Ioane to come up with something in those times.
Anyway, carry on with the Foster out/Razor is the best chat guys haha.
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At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
"Scott has such a clear vision around the theme he would want the team to be built on and he would be uncompromising with that."
"He is a visionary in that respect and you can only really do that if you are the head guy," Mark Jones said.
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@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So you're saying Cheika is a better coach than Robertson?
Well he certainly improved Pablo Matera . . . wait a darn minute...
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
I don't think he was selfish, just ambitious - which is fine. Def. a bit naive though
I think the issue is around turning down an AB assistant coach role and making it clear that, as far as he was concerned, it was Head Coach or nothing. That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
Then I would say NZR is at fault there and being naive.
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@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
Then I would say NZR is at fault there and being naive.
Until they'd asked him to take an Assistant role, they wouldn't have known he'd refuse and only take the head job or none at all.
If they did know, you could argue they shouldn't have asked him to discuss the job,I guess.
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@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
Depends on how well he does at RWC2023 (say, makes the final) and whether he wants to stay on, I guess.
Ironically, the debacle of late 2021/early 2022 could strengthen the case.for retaining him - being seen as someone who can ride out adversity and succeed might be a big plus with some board members. Not that I'm tempting fate here.....
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@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
Depends on how well he does at RWC2023 (say, makes the final) and whether he wants to stay on, I guess.
Ironically, the debacle of late 2021/early 2022 could strengthen the case.for retaining him - being seen as someone who can ride out adversity and succeed might be a big plus with some board members. Not that I'm tempting fate here.....
His chosen team, except for McLeod has been stripped from him. He feels like a dead man walking post RWC. Of course winning it would complicate things, but his new assistants seemed to coincide with the side improving, he is the same guy who drove us down before that
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
Depends on how well he does at RWC2023 (say, makes the final) and whether he wants to stay on, I guess.
Ironically, the debacle of late 2021/early 2022 could strengthen the case.for retaining him - being seen as someone who can ride out adversity and succeed might be a big plus with some board members. Not that I'm tempting fate here.....
His chosen team, except for McLeod has been stripped from him. He feels like a dead man walking post RWC. Of course winning it would complicate things, but his new assistants seemed to coincide with the side improving, he is the same guy who drove us down before that
Not quite. He wanted Joe Schmidt from Day 1 but Joe was unwilling/unavailable. And I take the view that if the head honcho rightly takes the shit when thing aren't going well (regardless of his assistants), he equally gets the plaudits when things do go well.
I think a root-and-branch review on NZ Rugby is in order after the WC to learn the lessons from the last 6-8 years or so and plot a new approach as the rugby world has changed dramatically in that period. There's a whole raft of issues which probably need fixing and selecting & developing the new AB coaching team needs to form a key part of that.
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
Not sure what that has to do with Robertson's desire to be head coach and not assistant coach to what appeared to be a failing All Black setup.
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@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
Not sure what that has to do with Robertson's desire to be head coach and not assistant coach to what appeared to be a failing All Black setup.
Nothing. We were talking warning flags and I digressed to imply that Fozzie overseeing the ABs to all those losses and the manner of those losses was a warning flag about his ability to do the job
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Victor-Meldrew it's very understandable, I don't see why there should be warning flags.
Warning flags? Warning flags are being shellacked on the end of year tour, losing a first ever home tour to Ireland and a home test to Argentina, all the while seemingly having no clue how to improve the situation
Not sure what that has to do with Robertson's desire to be head coach and not assistant coach to what appeared to be a failing All Black setup.
Nothing. We were talking warning flags and I digressed to imply that Fozzie overseeing the ABs to all those losses and the manner of those losses was a warning flag about his ability to do the job
was going to say much the same...id be bloody worried of NZR think a coach with a proven track record at the feeder comp for the AB's are worried because hes confident...but ignore red flags like fosters actual results...seems like screwed up priorities to me
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@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crucial said in Foster, Robertson etc:
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned previously in the thread but I find talk of a 'snub' by NZR a bit hard to take even knowing how useless NZR are.
Razor signed with them in full knowledge that the big job wouldn't come up until after RWC.
NZ, Eng, Oz, whoever are all in the same boat as far as timings go it is just that Eng and Oz don't go through selection process the same way NZ do and will happily throw out a contract to whoever they want.
He hasn't been stiffed by anyone.
The Foster mess in the middle of the year was badly handled if he was told to be ready as opposed to being sounded out.
Personally I think if he goes with England it smacks of being selfish and entitled. He simply had bad luck with timing just as many players do in their career. Even then he has still taken an NZR pay cheque up until the time his chance would come anyway.I don't understand how going with England would be entitled. Selfish yes, but it can be argued we are all selfish no matter what decision we make, so I don't see that as a bad thing.
It is just my opinion and I am sure others here view things differently.
I'm just getting the vibe that he feels entitled to a big job right now and is approaching unions on that basis.
Somewhere like England would actually work for him better than NZ IMO as well. I still still him as a very skilled strategist and planner that needs an equally excellent support team. RFU will give him that whereas his selection in NZ may be slightly limited.I think he wants a promotion and thinks he deserves one. Can't blame him for that because he has been successful in his current role. Like anybody else wanting a promotion he is considering all options. If you are wanting a promotion and your current employer is dithering or doesn't have a spot open it makes sense to consider other options.
But this is the equivalent of you wanting a promotion to be Superintendent of the police force but deciding to become the head of the Bandidos rather than wait for the position to become available.
2019 Super Rugby final - Wikipedia
