Foster, Robertson etc
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@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Mitchell Drummond
Razor winning in his 1st year considering the rawness of his backline was pretty impressive.
Drummond 22, Hall 24, Mo'unga 22, Hunt 21, Goodhue 21, Havili, 22, Bridge 22, all quite limited players in their own right...
Only squaddies over 25 were Read, Crotty, Whitelock, Crockett, Franks, Perry, Romano, Moody, Dagg.
F*** me, I don't mind Razor, (or any coach) but bugger me the forward pack from then was bloody good though.
I fucking love this thread sometimes. Poor Razor only had 4 of the front 5 from the top AB team in his young pup Crusaders (Moody, Taylor, Franks, Whitelock); these guys were hardly backed up by other All Blacks such as Crockett, Scott Barrett, Romano, Todd, Crotty, Dagg, and Goodhue. Oh fuck, there was another guy in there too named Reid or Reed or something like that as well. He might have been playing for the ABs, might have even been the captain for a while.
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@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
And had the ABs top job taken from him because of a perceived lack of conviction and confidence
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse yeah, but when that confidence is backed up by and possibly actually based on facts, in razors case results....then surely thats different than the opposite...see foster
Agree. I was more talking about the scenario where Smith may have not been given the AB job again simply because he expressed some doubts.
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@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Unions seem to make decisions based on Cup performance. Or, even worse, are paralysed from making decisions by an impending Cup.
If you think you have the right guy, how the Cup goes should have no bearing on your decision making, it's like 6 weeks of rugby over the length of a couple of year contract. Good teams have bad days, why fucking base your biggest decision on one bad day?
If you don't think you have the right guy, why would the outcome of the Cup matter for the same reason? An average coach can win it if the variables fall your way. If the rest of the evidence is week, but it comes together for 6 weeks, why change your thinking?Agree with most of this.
The evidence is in on three years of Fozzie's four year tenure.
It's been a pretty mediocre period, full of up and down performances - and littered with losses (and draws) from "underperformances".
If I'm the board and Robinson, I'd be making these points at Fozzie's performance review. Could have done better. Now, Ian, we're backing you to the hilt for RWC 2023. Tell us what you want and need to get the job done and we'll do our best to give you what we can.
BUT, this is your shot. After that, it's a change of direction and like Eddie, here's your chance to announce you're stepping down after RWC with our thanks for your efforts.
And write Razor a contract and lock him in.
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@Chris-B said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@mariner4life said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Unions seem to make decisions based on Cup performance. Or, even worse, are paralysed from making decisions by an impending Cup.
If you think you have the right guy, how the Cup goes should have no bearing on your decision making, it's like 6 weeks of rugby over the length of a couple of year contract. Good teams have bad days, why fucking base your biggest decision on one bad day?
If you don't think you have the right guy, why would the outcome of the Cup matter for the same reason? An average coach can win it if the variables fall your way. If the rest of the evidence is week, but it comes together for 6 weeks, why change your thinking?Agree with most of this.
The evidence is in on three years of Fozzie's four year tenure.
It's been a pretty mediocre period, full of up and down performances - and littered with losses (and draws) from "underperformances".
If I'm the board and Robinson, I'd be making these points at Fozzie's performance review. Could have done better. Now, Ian, we're backing you to the hilt for RWC 2023. Tell us what you want and need to get the job done and we'll do our best to give you what we can.
BUT, this is your shot. After that, it's a change of direction and like Eddie, here's your chance to announce you're stepping down after RWC with our thanks for your efforts.
And write Razor a contract and lock him in.
If any of the board want Fozz to stay under any circumstance they should give themselves an uppercut
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
And had the ABs top job taken from him because of a perceived lack of conviction and confidence
...and one of the greatest coaches we've seen. Players rave about him. Point was that you don't have to hold yourself out to be infallible.
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@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
And had the ABs top job taken from him because of a perceived lack of conviction and confidence
...and one of the greatest coaches we've seen. Players rave about him. Point was that you don't have to hold yourself out to be infallible.
True but if you don't maybe you can lose your Job.
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@gt12 other franchises such as Hurricanes had great squads, between 2015-2018, essentially an All Blacks backline & talented forward pack, people seem to carry a perception that since Razor won that year he must've (by default) had the best talent.
I believe that Robertson would've had great success with other Super teams, he would've won titles like Boyd, Rennie, Joseph in other environments, he has a great tactical brain, recruits astutely and prepares & plans for matches with extraordinary detail.
I would have any of Boyd, Rennie, Joseph, McMillan, McDonald over Foster without hesitation, I'd take Razor over them all though because of his ability to really shake things up & be a positive disrupter, your head honcho is the face of the organization, Razor has an enormous ability to influence, he's is a inspirational figure that the nation (young people especially) would be captured within imagination and inspired by, just like how Smithy's & his Black Ferns swept the country over. Razor is young, innovative, progressive - he relates with the modern rugby player & audience.
He has an infectious personality, players/fans want to get in behind that & follow, Ruby Tui & the Black Ferns show the way.
So combine that radiant glowing influential face of the organization with an analytical technical assistant (Tony Brown or Joe Schmidt) and you'll have an incredibly powerful combination.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
And had the ABs top job taken from him because of a perceived lack of conviction and confidence
...and one of the greatest coaches we've seen. Players rave about him. Point was that you don't have to hold yourself out to be infallible.
True but if you don't maybe you can lose your Job.
Some guys obviously portray confidence more than others.
Not necessarily a reflection of ability
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
And had the ABs top job taken from him because of a perceived lack of conviction and confidence
...and one of the greatest coaches we've seen. Players rave about him. Point was that you don't have to hold yourself out to be infallible.
True but if you don't maybe you can lose your Job.
Some guys obviously portray confidence more than others.
Not necessarily a reflection of ability
I never said it reflected ability.I have meet some right tools who believe they are everything to the universe but are just useless.
But everyone follows someone who is confident than someone lacking it.
A few Wars have started that way. -
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
And had the ABs top job taken from him because of a perceived lack of conviction and confidence
...and one of the greatest coaches we've seen. Players rave about him. Point was that you don't have to hold yourself out to be infallible.
True but if you don't maybe you can lose your Job.
Some guys obviously portray confidence more than others.
Not necessarily a reflection of ability
I never said it reflected ability.I have meet some right tools who believe they are everything to the universe but are just useless.
But everyone follows someone who is confident than someone lacking it.
A few Wars have started that way.I know what you said. And I'm agreeing with you. Nothing wrong with being confident, based on the trophies and the work of his assistant on the current AB setup I'd say Razor has the skills to back it up
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
And had the ABs top job taken from him because of a perceived lack of conviction and confidence
...and one of the greatest coaches we've seen. Players rave about him. Point was that you don't have to hold yourself out to be infallible.
True but if you don't maybe you can lose your Job.
Some guys obviously portray confidence more than others.
Not necessarily a reflection of ability
I never said it reflected ability.I have meet some right tools who believe they are everything to the universe but are just useless.
But everyone follows someone who is confident than someone lacking it.
A few Wars have started that way.I know what you said. And I'm agreeing with you. Nothing wrong with being confident, based on the you trophies and the work of his assistant on the current AB setup I'd say Razor has the skills to back it up
Ok miss read your post.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble I really wasn't comparing Razor to Foster per se. Just pointing out his CV was lighter than it is now. Super Rugby wasn't as strong as it had been previously. Crusaders beat the Lions twice and Jaguares - two of the weaker finalists IMO.
In 2019, Jaguares 23 that played the final were all internationals, only 2 guys on the bench are now ex-Pumas.
Razor's 2019 results with merely a club team:
49-17 (Buenos Aires) 19-3 (Chch)
Foster's results with All Blacks against the same players:
15-25, 36-0, 18-25, 52-3. 2/4 wins is quite simply embarrassing.
So you're saying Cheika is a better coach than Robertson?
Sign him up.
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
I'm not sure I follow on that. He's a head coach and sees that as his role, I can't see how it would be good for him or the head coach to go in as assistant. He's going to have his tenure judged on someone else's results and have nowhere near the control he might need to perform as he knows how.
I mean, who's to say he wouldn't have gone the way of Plumtree?
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@Chris There really was nothing special about that team haha. Rieko was about 12 years old, we never had a 9/10 back then, a very bad tight 5 excluding Faumuina as Tuipulotu and Tu'ungafasi were still a bit raw back then, Kaino was over the hill, Moala was a winger playing 12 lol, SBW played about 5 games that year and we couldn't defend a rolling maul to save our lives.
Yes we had a couple of good players in that side, but the bad definitely outweighed the good in that side lol, we were easily the worst out of the NZ teams back then on paper and with the results, and just relied on Akira Ioane to come up with something in those times.
Anyway, carry on with the Foster out/Razor is the best chat guys haha.
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At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
"Scott has such a clear vision around the theme he would want the team to be built on and he would be uncompromising with that."
"He is a visionary in that respect and you can only really do that if you are the head guy," Mark Jones said.
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@Bones said in Foster, Robertson etc:
So you're saying Cheika is a better coach than Robertson?
Well he certainly improved Pablo Matera . . . wait a darn minute...
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
I don't think he was selfish, just ambitious - which is fine. Def. a bit naive though
I think the issue is around turning down an AB assistant coach role and making it clear that, as far as he was concerned, it was Head Coach or nothing. That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in Foster, Robertson etc:
That would rightly raise more than a few warning flags around team-work and upward-management with NZR.
Then I would say NZR is at fault there and being naive.
2019 Super Rugby final - Wikipedia
