Foster, Robertson etc
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Part of me also questions if the Crusaders record since he took over says at least as much about Todd Blackadder as it does Scott Robertson. He wasn't exactly required to build a team. Inherited a squad laden with current and future AB's.
Well he has built teams since an introduced Newell,Williams,Gallagher ,Jordan etc and has built the Crusaders Academy which was floundering under Blackadder.
He did have a squad in his first year with Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown,Leon Fukofuka,Tim Bateman,Sione Fifita,Tim Perry, Mitchell Hunt, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt,Jone Macilai and a crapped out Digby Ioane exactly world beaters
as to call it an inherited a squad with 10 current AB's that year but in comparison the Canes had 9 AB's the Chiefs had 9 and the Blues had 9 Highlanders had 8.
That is total AB's through the June tests,RC and Northern Tour.So the AB's were pretty spread through out the squads in Razors first year.
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Part of me also questions if the Crusaders record since he took over says at least as much about Todd Blackadder as it does Scott Robertson. He wasn't exactly required to build a team. Inherited a squad laden with current and future AB's.
is that fair? blackadder didn't win with the same squad...and the squad he has now isnt the same as the one to inherited and is still winning so he developed that
i admit my bias might be coming into this....kind of hoping if the AB picked up razor the crusaders might start stumbling.....;)
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Kiwiwomble I really wasn't comparing Razor to Foster per se. Just pointing out his CV was lighter than it is now. Super Rugby wasn't as strong as it had been previously. Crusaders beat the Lions twice and Jaguares - two of the weaker finalists IMO.
In 2019, Jaguares 23 that played the final were all internationals, only 2 guys on the bench are now ex-Pumas.
Razor's 2019 results with merely a club team:
49-17 (Buenos Aires) 19-3 (Chch)
Foster's results with All Blacks against the same players:
15-25, 36-0, 18-25, 52-3. 2/4 wins is quite simply embarrassing.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Sometimes people forget what Razor managed to do at the start of his Crusaders tenure with a very raw squad. The team had lost Carter, McCaw, Read, Nadolo, Dagg, Crotty and Ellis (along with a few less well known stars). Most pundits expected a slow rebuild but he managed to build a winning team from players who on paper shouldn't have been ready. Since then we know that he is very skilled at motivating players, building campaigns with focus and strategy and thinking outside the box, for example there were a few eyebrows raised when he convinced ROG to join him, same when he recruited Matera (NZ tends to be more insular). These are skills that translate to any level IMO (Innovation, strategic thinking, good personnel manager).
dont think this matches up with your post
crusaders 2017 squadForwards: Michael Alaalatoa, Wyatt Crockett, Oliver Jager, Joe Moody, Tim Perry, Owen Franks, Ben Funnell, Andrew Makalio, Codie Taylor, Scott Barrett, Luke Romano, Quinten Strange, Sam Whitelock, Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown, Mitchell Dunshea, Kieran Read, Pete Samu, Jordan Taufua, Matt Todd.
Backs: Mitchell Drummond, Leon Fukofuka, Bryn Hall, Tim Bateman, Marty McKenzie, Richie Mo'unga, Ryan Crotty, Jack Goodhue, David Havili, Seta Tamanivalu, Sean Wainui, George Bridge, Israel Dagg, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt, Digby Ioane, Jone Macilai, Manasa Mataele.
Good: The midfield looks stronger with Jack Goodhue, Seta Tamanivalu and Tim Bateman handy additions to join Ryan Crotty. Promising young forwards Mitch Dunshea and Andrew Makalio bolster the pack.
Bad: It remains to be seen if veteran ex-Wallaby Digby Ioane can fill the massive void left by Nemani Nadolo.
In: Bateman (Japan), Ioane (Japan), Tamanivalu (Chiefs), Hall (Blues), Jager (Canterbury), Makalio ( Ta$man), Strange ( Ta$man), Bedwell-Curtis (Manawatu), Dunshea (Canterbury), Goodhue (Canterbury), Brown (Canterbury), Bridge (Canterbury), Mataele (Taranaki).
Out: Johnny McNicholl (Wales), Nemani Nadolo (France), Alex Hodgman (Blues), Jimmy Tupou (Blues), Tim Boys (released), Kieron Fonotia (Wales), Andrew Ellis (Japan), Reed Prinsep (Hurricanes), Robbie Fruean (England), Ben Volavola (released), Ged Robinson (retired).
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@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Sometimes people forget what Razor managed to do at the start of his Crusaders tenure with a very raw squad. The team had lost Carter, McCaw, Read, Nadolo, Dagg, Crotty and Ellis (along with a few less well known stars). Most pundits expected a slow rebuild but he managed to build a winning team from players who on paper shouldn't have been ready. Since then we know that he is very skilled at motivating players, building campaigns with focus and strategy and thinking outside the box, for example there were a few eyebrows raised when he convinced ROG to join him, same when he recruited Matera (NZ tends to be more insular). These are skills that translate to any level IMO (Innovation, strategic thinking, good personnel manager).
dont think this matches up with your post
crusaders 2017 squadForwards: Michael Alaalatoa, Wyatt Crockett, Oliver Jager, Joe Moody, Tim Perry, Owen Franks, Ben Funnell, Andrew Makalio, Codie Taylor, Scott Barrett, Luke Romano, Quinten Strange, Sam Whitelock, Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown, Mitchell Dunshea, Kieran Read, Pete Samu, Jordan Taufua, Matt Todd.
Backs: Mitchell Drummond, Leon Fukofuka, Bryn Hall, Tim Bateman, Marty McKenzie, Richie Mo'unga, Ryan Crotty, Jack Goodhue, David Havili, Seta Tamanivalu, Sean Wainui, George Bridge, Israel Dagg, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt, Digby Ioane, Jone Macilai, Manasa Mataele.
Good: The midfield looks stronger with Jack Goodhue, Seta Tamanivalu and Tim Bateman handy additions to join Ryan Crotty. Promising young forwards Mitch Dunshea and Andrew Makalio bolster the pack.
Bad: It remains to be seen if veteran ex-Wallaby Digby Ioane can fill the massive void left by Nemani Nadolo.
In: Bateman (Japan), Ioane (Japan), Tamanivalu (Chiefs), Hall (Blues), Jager (Canterbury), Makalio ( Ta$man), Strange ( Ta$man), Bedwell-Curtis (Manawatu), Dunshea (Canterbury), Goodhue (Canterbury), Brown (Canterbury), Bridge (Canterbury), Mataele (Taranaki).
Out: Johnny McNicholl (Wales), Nemani Nadolo (France), Alex Hodgman (Blues), Jimmy Tupou (Blues), Tim Boys (released), Kieron Fonotia (Wales), Andrew Ellis (Japan), Reed Prinsep (Hurricanes), Robbie Fruean (England), Ben Volavola (released), Ged Robinson (retired).
that Blues squad looked pretty handy from 2017
Forwards: Gerard Cowley-Tuioti, Epalahame Faiva, Charlie Faumuina, Blake Gibson, Josh Goodhue, Alex Hodgman, Akira Ioane, Jerome Kaino, Steven Luatua, Sione Mafileo, Pauliasi Manu, Matt Moulds, Brandon Nansen, James Parsons, Sam Prattley, Kara Pryor, Scott Scrafton , Murphy Taramai, Patrick Tuipulotu, Jimmy Tupou, Ofa Tu'ungafasiBacks: Michael Collins, Matt Duffie, TJ Faiane, Billy Guyton, Rieko Ioane, Matt Vaega, George Moala, Melani Nanai, Sam Nock, Declan O'Donnell, Stephen Perofeta, Augustine Pulu, Rene Ranger, Jordon Trainor, Ihaia West, Sonny Bill Williams, Piers Francis
A few big AB's in there and surprising to see Stephen Perofeta, he has been in SR for 6 seasons.
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
intransigence
"refusal to change one's views or to agree about something."
He's not in a marriage, he's a professional with a career?!!
The NZR is not a church and the All Blacks is no longer a religion with a sacred calling and aura! -
@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Mitchell Drummond
Razor winning in his 1st year considering the rawness of his backline was pretty impressive.
Drummond 22, Hall 24, Mo'unga 22, Hunt 21, Goodhue 21, Havili, 22, Bridge 22, all quite limited players in their own right...
Only squaddies over 25 were Read, Crotty, Whitelock, Crockett, Franks, Perry, Romano, Moody, Dagg.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Mitchell Drummond
Razor winning in his 1st year considering the rawness of his backline was pretty impressive.
Drummond 22, Hall 23, Mo'unga 22, Hunt 21, Goodhue 21, Havili, 22, Bridge 22, all quite limited players in their own right...
Only squaddies over 25 were Read, Crotty, Whitelock, Crockett, Franks, Perry, Romano, Moody, Dagg.
nice change of direction keep working on it
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@ploughboy said in Foster, Robertson etc:
Mitchell Drummond
Razor winning in his 1st year considering the rawness of his backline was pretty impressive.
Drummond 22, Hall 24, Mo'unga 22, Hunt 21, Goodhue 21, Havili, 22, Bridge 22, all quite limited players in their own right...
Only squaddies over 25 were Read, Crotty, Whitelock, Crockett, Franks, Perry, Romano, Moody, Dagg.
F*** me, I don't mind Razor, (or any coach) but bugger me the forward pack from then was bloody good though.
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@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
Whichever way it happened he still expressed self doubt in his abilities as HC, asking for the Job to be advertised it shows lack of confidence,If I did that to my employers as a Coach I would get replaced as it puts doubt in their minds.
In fact I know a couple of coaches who have done the same thing both lost their jobs. -
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
as to call it an inherited a squad with 10 current AB's that year but in comparison the Canes had 9 AB's the Chiefs had 9 and the Blues had 9 Highlanders had 8..
Not to mention, Blues & Chiefs have seen just as (in recent seasons more) many All Blacks in their XVs.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
Whichever way it happened he still expressed self doubt in his abilities as HC, asking for the Job to be advertised it shows lack of confidence,If I did that to my employers as a Coach I would get replaced as it puts doubt in their minds.
In fact I know a couple of coaches who have done the same thing both lost their jobs.I reckon that is a crap way of doing things. Confidence in one's self is not necessarily a good indicator on whether someone can do the job. A slight tangent I know, but it's been established in witness accounts that witness confidence in their own versions has no correlation to the accuracy of those versions. Yet we still believe the confident person.
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@Crazy-Horse but is there not a difference, potentially even, between what your talking about which i take it is memory of past events....and confidence based on facts (results) and being able to replicate those results
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
He did have a squad in his first year with Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown, Leon Fukofuka, Tim Bateman, Sione Fifita, Tim Perry, Mitchell Hunt, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt, Jone Macilai and a crapped out Digby Ioane exactly world beaters
The Crusaders under Razor have seen lots of these types of players, honest toilers, albeit limited athletically - invariably lack impact at test level, can't say that for McDonald's star studded & x-factor laden Blues sides who continually get picked apart by Razor's astute tactics, I also recall Crusaders pack struggling against the Chiefs All Black laden pack in their 20-7 Semi-Final win.
Razor makes his teams 'greater than the sum of their parts', it was the same with Sumner, he inherited a Sumner outfit that was rock bottom of the Chch 2nd Division. Within one year he had transformed them from cellar-dwellers to Division champs. And the following seasons he coached them all the way to the top of Div 1.
Yes, Blackadder's 63% record was bad as ploughboy suggests, but even Dean's 5 titles across 8 seasons vs Razor's 6 titles in 6 seasons when comparing to Deans & Blackadder's ridiculously stacked squads and experienced greats like Carter, McCaw etc.
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@kiwi_expat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
He did have a squad in his first year with Heiden Bedwell-Curtis, Jed Brown, Leon Fukofuka, Tim Bateman, Sione Fifita, Tim Perry, Mitchell Hunt, Sione Fifita, Mitchell Hunt, Jone Macilai and a crapped out Digby Ioane exactly world beaters
The Crusaders under Razor have seen lots of these types of players, honest toilers, albeit limited athletically - invariably lack impact at test level, can't say that for McDonald's star studded & x-factor laden Blues sides who continually get picked apart by Razor's astute tactics, I also recall Crusaders pack struggling against the Chiefs All Black laden pack in their 20-7 Semi-Final win.
Razor makes his teams 'greater than the sum of their parts', it was the same with Sumner, he inherited a Sumner outfit that was rock bottom of the Chch 2nd Division. Within one year he had transformed them from cellar-dwellers to Division champs. And the following seasons he coached them all the way to the top of Div 1.
Yes, Blackadder's 63% record was bad as ploughboy suggests, but even Dean's 5 titles across 8 seasons vs Razor's 6 titles in 6 seasons when comparing to Deans & Blackadder's ridiculously stacked squads and experienced greats like Carter, McCaw etc.
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@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
Whichever way it happened he still expressed self doubt in his abilities as HC, asking for the Job to be advertised it shows lack of confidence,If I did that to my employers as a Coach I would get replaced as it puts doubt in their minds.
In fact I know a couple of coaches who have done the same thing both lost their jobs.I reckon that is a crap way of doing things. Confidence in one's self is not necessarily a good indicator on whether someone can do the job. A slight tangent I know, but it's been established in witness accounts that witness confidence in their own versions has no correlation to the accuracy of those versions. Yet we still believe the confident person.
The way people in hiring positions seem to think these days.
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This post is deleted!
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@Kiwiwomble said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse but is there not a difference, potentially even, between what your talking about which i take it is memory of past events....and confidence based on facts (results) and being able to replicate those results
People have different way of expressing things, acting, carrying themselves. Just because one person could rate themselves, talk themselves up, give off the impression of confidence doesn't mean that person is any more capable than someone else that acknowledges their own weaknesses or self doubts.
Look at Foster for example. He came across as being very confident in the direction the ABs were taking. I think he may have even been called deluded on here at some point.
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@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Crazy-Horse said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Dan54 said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@nzzp said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson etc:
@Chris While I agree with what you said I still think you can argue Robertson is entitled. Not based on the current situation but his performance and posturing in 2019.
At that stage he hadn't built the CV that he has today; and the - it's my way or the highway - refusal to accept anything other than the head coaching role absolutely smacks of entitlement. IMO.
The guy's obviously got a healthy regard for his own ability and entitlement sort of goes with that territory.
Personally, I think his strategy at that time was a) selfish and b) naive.
You can argue anything coming from any angle but maybe it is backing himself which you need as coach or you self doubt and you are gone mentally.
The counter-argument to 'back yourself no matter what' is Wayne Smith. Famously humble and open to better ways to improve.
Yes maybe but smith did go to the NZR and say he didn't want to be HC as he wasn't good at it.
So he had a big moment of self doubt that almost derailed him .Actually Smith went to NZR and asked them to readvertise job, after ABs lost Bledisloe, and felt he needed to see if had support. Anton Oliver talks about it in his book, he was gutted Smith didn't hold the job. That was before every man and his dog was showing their vast knowledge on rugby boards etc. But he found he was getting a bit of stick from ABs not winning Blediloe, and suggested job got advertsied. And seems even then people got hung up on results etc and not job he was doing. And seems players weren't particularly listened to.
Whichever way it happened he still expressed self doubt in his abilities as HC, asking for the Job to be advertised it shows lack of confidence,If I did that to my employers as a Coach I would get replaced as it puts doubt in their minds.
In fact I know a couple of coaches who have done the same thing both lost their jobs.I reckon that is a crap way of doing things. Confidence in one's self is not necessarily a good indicator on whether someone can do the job. A slight tangent I know, but it's been established in witness accounts that witness confidence in their own versions has no correlation to the accuracy of those versions. Yet we still believe the confident person.
The way people in hiring positions seem to think these days.
I know they do. And I think it can lead to problems. We all do it though. We trust the confident person.
2019 Super Rugby final - Wikipedia
