All Blacks vs Scotland
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TJP played himself back into the 23. His rugby intelligence, especially with the refs has been hugely influential for both the teams he has represented over the last few weeks.
Paps, Ardie, and SF for the starting loose trio, please. AI didn't do too badly but there seemed a big difference once Shannon joined the fray.
Jodie and RI just have to play midfield from now on. RI is influential wherever he plays but there are no other choices at center. One of the most important members of the team now. If he goes down,........shittings!
Once we get Lomax back at tighthead, the ABs have a pretty tidy tight five I think. Do you play Ofa or not on the bench?
Oh, and once Jordan is back, I don't think BB should be anywhere near the starting 15. -
Only caught the highlights now.
Gee that was a very dodgy penalty try against ALB, and also a very harsh yellow against Scotland.
Unsurprisingly, the referee gets stuck right in and punishes the defender way out of whack to the crime.
No way Hogg ws scoring that, bounce fooled them both. ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces. Triple punished.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
Was JB really the only viable option at 15?
RM was being rested so BB at 10.
DH has played what, dozen tests at 12? His use in the squad now is as a utility so maybe best to test him in other positions, like maybe fullback....
Or maybe show more than 50 seconds of trust in SP.
Maybe they wanted experience at 15 & 10.
Then why not DH to 15?
Inexperience.
DH has no experience at fullback?
As I said, they probably selected JB at 15 as they deemed DH was inexperienced/not good enough there.
Btw you haven't explained how selecting JB at 15 and making him kicker can be called managing his workload.
It was about managing RM's workload. Playing BB at 10 meant someone else at 15. WJ wasn't available and, after consideration (and probably talking to the players) they chose JB as the best option.
My original point was the risk of playing JB at 12, every Test until RWC2023, to build combination/experience. Fine in theory, but there's a risk the plan unravelling if he gets injured and there's bugger all backup. Apart from blaming Foster, what do we do then?
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@Rapido said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces.
If only it was Clarke chasing!
Like you I originally thought the ball had beaten Hogg, but then the replays showed how massively deep the in goal is and Hogg had already started to stop. I reckon he probably could have stopped and dived back, just beating Jordie.
It doesn't excuse the ref arrogantly ignoring opening up the gap for Hogg by blocking DP and then saying it had no effect.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
You want more time developing a backup than a starter? Fucking mindless.
It's not binary. Try actually reading what I wrote rather than throwing your toys out of the pam because I don't agree with you.
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While Murphy was generally good one of the penalties he gave Scotland in the 1st half was very poor. When Akira took the ball into contract and was penalised for holding on, a Scottish player was on the ground on the ABs side of the ruck and rolled to take Savea's legs from under him to prevent Ardie from being the cleaner.
I'm not sure why people are saying ALB looked slow. He and Hogg ran right past Jordie to what eventually led to the PT. So JB was really slow.
Clarke has the turning circle of a supertanker.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rapido said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
ALB would have done better to have tripped over his own laces.
If only it was Clarke chasing!
Like you I originally thought the ball had beaten Hogg, but then the replays showed how massively deep the in goal is and Hogg had already started to stop. I reckon he probably could have stopped and dived back, just beating Jordie.
It doesn't excuse the ref arrogantly ignoring opening up the gap for Hogg by blocking DP and then saying it had no effect.
Fair enough. You probably saw more replay angles than was on the package I watched.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
That point makes no sense. Giving Havili more time to show he isn't fit to be a backup 12 doesn't provide a solution to the hypothetical question.
Perhaps they thought DH would do OK and develop as he's had some good Tests at 12 before? Hopefully that's been put to bed after that shocker.
They have a big problem in midfield and bugger all time left to fix it.
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@Bovidae said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
When Akira took the ball into contract and was penalised for holding on, a Scottish player was on the ground on the ABs side of the ruck and rolled to take Savea's legs from under him to prevent Ardie from being the cleaner.
Nah that's wearing an eye patch. Ardie was taken out by the tackler's legs swinging around as he completed the tackle. Good call from Murphy.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@chimoaus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@ACT-Crusader So what you are trying to say is DH starts in the WC 23 final and has a blinder?
Or hobbles off injured in the final because both Jordie and ALB have been injured in training and the semi final, only to make way for Sevu Reece to be shifted to 2nd 5 and score a try and hold the cup aloft….
I think a better story would be JB, DH, ALB all get injured, and they call in Māori Jesus who happens to be helping feed the homeless nearby, starts the game and scores after the siren to win.
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@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
Jeez, talk about getting emotional, personal, hyperbolic & putting words in my mouth.
It doesn't matter if Ma'a & Conrad played 70 Tests together and were awesome or whether Foster has been shit or not. That's irrelevant to the current problems in midfield. And where did I suggest "Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up"? Where did I " advocate for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go."? Please tell me.
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
Rather than engage, your response it to deny there's a risk or situation to manage and respond by telling us Foster is shit, Ma'a and Conrad were great, make up stuff I'm supposed to have said, and tell us there's only 10 Tests to go before the 2023 Quarters. Says it all really.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
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@voodoo said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
Yeah this chopping and changing is such a great idea. Fucking change my mind.
Ma'a Nonu played something like 70 tests at 12 and 62 of those were with Conrad Smith. Jordie B has had 2 and looks a million times better than that headless chook Havili. We're 10 tests away from a QF but yeah, keep changing the fucking team.
Since 2015 we've been looking for centers. Hansen fucked the team around all the way up to the SF in 2019. Foster has done the same. Finally find a potential candidate and he won't be played 2 tests in succession.
For all the doom and gloom in this test, the Jocks are gifted a PT (DP was blocked from making a tackle and the ball ingoal makes a huge dogleg to the left, not probable in my book but hey) and Mr Indecisive gift wraps and pass right into the hands of the Jocks.
And what happens if we put all our eggs in the Jordie basket, he gets injured and we don't have back-ups with reasonable experience.?
You can say that about any number of players from every single team in the world. That's just the nature of the beast. This obsession NZ has with trying to have 2 players in every position with loads of test experience is absurd and is really hurting us as our top team rarely gets consecutive games together. We are just shooting ourselves in the foot with this while other teams build combinations.
Not really talking about having 2 players in every position, more about having a viable and reasonably seasoned option if a player gets injured - e.g.12. We don't currently have that and are running out of time to deliver it.
I think ALB is that guy at 12, especially inside RI
Think you could be right. Just hope he hasn't had a massive fall-off after injury. Thought RTS did OK against Japan and def. needs more game time.
I'd go with RI, ALB, JB & RTS for the RWC.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
Listen to yourself FFS. We have 10 tests or so. Potentially our greatest pairing had something like 30-40 in a partnership over 6 or 7 years to become O for awesome. Wats your suggestion? Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up? We don't have fucking time because Foster has been shit for the last 3 years. We're a year behind in our development. Ideally all this shit would have been sorted last year. It's fucking unbelievable you're still advocating for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go. We either lock in our combinations now and hope to gel as a unit OR keep this rotation of selection going until the QF against SA or Ireland. Because it worked out fucking well in 2019.
Jeez, talk about getting emotional, personal, hyperbolic & putting words in my mouth.
It doesn't matter if Ma'a & Conrad played 70 Tests together and were awesome or whether Foster has been shit or not. That's irrelevant to the current problems in midfield. And where did I suggest "Keep playing alternative 12s for the next fucking 10 tests until we find JBs* back up"? Where did I " advocate for a merry-go-round in selections to search for backups for the backups with 10 tests to go."? Please tell me.
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
Rather than engage, your response it to deny there's a risk or situation to manage and respond by telling us Foster is shit, Ma'a and Conrad were great, make up stuff I'm supposed to have said, and tell us there's only 10 Tests to go before the 2023 Quarters. Says it all really.
To be fair that’s exactly what the fern is built on.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Joans-Town-Jones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
I'm sick of these people on here claiming we need to find a second option to JB.
So your answer is not to bother about any back-ups at 12 and just play Jordie there and give bugger-all thought to managing his workload?
The only problem with that is what you do (apart from blaming Foster for being an idiot for not developing MF options) if/when Jordie gets injured.
If it was about managing his workload then why tf even play him in this game?Play him at 12 or not at all.
They wouldn't have played him if Will Jordan was available for 15.
At the end of the day it was patently obvious that DH was a stopgap at best. The idea that he was ever going to be a world class 12 was stoopid.
Maybe. But how does that address the issue of back-up at 12 if Jordie is injured?
That point makes no sense. Giving Havili more time to show he isn't fit to be a backup 12 doesn't provide a solution to the hypothetical question.
Perhaps they thought DH would do OK and develop as he's had some good Tests at 12 before? Hopefully that's been put to bed after that shocker.
They have a big problem in midfield and bugger all time left to fix it.
I don't think we have a problem in the midfield at all. We have two world class players in Jordie and Rieko who, if we give them a bit of gametime together, will form a formidable combination over time. They are by far the most exciting midfield we've had since Ma'a/Conrad. We then have an experienced ALB to cover both positions from the bench. I'd say other teams are pretty envious of our talent there.
What we're (I guess), searching for is a 4th midfielder to cover injury. Everybody knew Havili isn't it before this match, yet they continue to invest time into him there. It's incredibly frustrating to watch.
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
That's what I was thinking (well, not the "best player" bit, but the rest, yes).
First of all, I don't think DH was as bad as people are posting here. Super exaggeration Fern-style. Defensively, he was very good (11 tackles made). That intercept pass was bad, but I think that he wasn't as effective on attack as a 12 should be because he was playing outside a super slow-mo Christie and an inadequate 10. DH played his best games outside RM.
DH can play the role that Jordie played during the 2019 RWC: the guy who can play almost anywhere in the backline in the games against the minnows in our pool & Italy, and injury back-up for the other games).
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks vs Scotland:
The issue I raised was: If JB's the answer at 12 and we need to give him as much game time as possible, how is he managed & what happens if he gets injured? How do the coaching team manage that risk?
they play him at 15?
Not sure what your point is.
I get it - it doesn't paint the picture of what to do if Jordie is injured, by playing him in a different position. It also potentially opens up that very risk of Jordie getting injured.
Ah, OK. My take is JB was at 15 as Jordan was out and they thought DH was too risky at 15. And/or they wanted to shift JB to 12 to see how he went with ALB but the way the game panned out screwed that.
Maybe DH would have been the best player on the planet with Perofeta at 10 and Beauden at fullback?
What universe you living in today, bro?
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The change in our play when the subs came on was dramatic. Was it superior players coming to the rescue, or the change to a more direct game plan similar to the Welsh game, or both?
The NH Tour is showing some players can do a job for us and showing others up. Now we just need Fozzie to correctly read the tea leaves
