All Blacks v Argentina II
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@nzzp said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Stargazer you realise my response was to him being referred to as a player who was 'being forgotten' by another poster. I don't think he's forgotten, but offered some perspective as to why. I think he's a talent, and I hope he succeeds ... but there's more rose tinted provincial glasses being worn on here recently than I've seen for ages. Probably a product of poor coaching, poor selection and AB losses.
Bounce it back to you - do you think he's forgotten? And do you think he's played well for teh ABs?
Side note: how do you find out how many minutes Christie has played -- is it easy to find anywhere?
Okay, you want to know how many minutes Christie has played in black?Christie's first tests were against easy beats: 27 minutes against Tonga and 12 minutes against Fiji, last year.
Also last year, he got 32 minutes against Argentina (2nd test).
During the EOYT, he got his only start (54 minutes) against the USA, and then 71 minutes off the bench against Italy (replacing Weber who got injured). He was named on the bench against Ireland, but never came on the field (no need to guess why).
This year, he played 21 minutes against Ireland in the first test (coming on when the ABs were already leading 35 to 12); then 12 and 11 minutes against South Africa, and 17 and 27 minutes against Argentina.
So basically, he's had been eased into test rugby via easy games and was in the squad for much longer before he got to play against a strong opponent. He wasn't thrown into the deep like Fakatava.
Fakatava came on in the second test when the ABs were trailing 7 - 20 and in the third test when the score was 22 - 25 and at a time that 4 players were substituted on more or less at the same time. Yes, his decision making was off a few times, but you'd think it's not so strange for a 22-year-old - who hadn't played for 5 weeks - to make a few mistakes after being thrown into a pressure cooker in his test debut.
I don't think Fakatava, or Perofeta, RTS, Fainga'anuku and Ross for that matter, are forgotten men either, but I also don't think they didn't get game time because they're not deemed good enough or failed in their first minutes of test rugby (Perofeta didn't even get enough time to make a mistake). I think they are being given time to learn in the ABs environment. So they're different from players like Sotutu and Papali'i (and Tuipulotu), who are not new to test rugby and have had little or no minutes for whatever reason.
But if the rookies are not being given sufficient game time in the upcoming tests, a) it will be difficult to know whether they're good enough for the RWC squad when selection time comes and/or b) we risk having players in the RWC squad next year that haven't had enough test rugby under their belt and are basically STILL rookies.
By the way, I have seen enough of Christie and Fakatava over the last few years to see that Fakatava has a far higher ceiling than Christie. Christie has been okay in black until now, but hasn't shown anything extraordinary, while he's had a pretty easy ride in most of his games.
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@Stargazer said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Christie's first tests were against easy beats: 27 minutes against Tonga and 12 minutes against Fiji, last year.
I don't recall Fiji esp in the forwards being easy beats?
https://www.allblacks.com/news/fiji-test-the-all-blacks-in-dunedin/Smith on Christie:
https://www.allblacks.com/news/aaron-smith-impressed-by-debutant-christie/"I wouldn't say he's fiery. He's very calm. He's just not scared of the moment to be physical. He's very calm on the ball, he's got a good process going into pass. If anything, he's a calm, fast, hardworking halfback." -
@Stargazer said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
Foster Hinted at some new players to be selected we may see some changes for the EOYT.
I don’t see any stand outs outside the squad yet
Some young guns coming through but vastly inexperienced.Maybe a couple of projects will be selected.
Isn't that what the ABs XV team will be used for?
Additions to the senior squad, I'd say that points at players who are experienced and in some cases may have already been there. I sure hope not it's Asafo Aumua, but it's a possibility (I'd prefer George Bell, but he's very green). Dmac is another one, although he's been hot and cold in the NPC, too, thus far. If they need another halfback, maybe Weber. Not sure whether Cullen Grace will be fit in time, but he'd be another option if he's available. At lock, maybe Josh Dickson.
@Paekakboyz said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Chris PUJ if fit? I know he's been in the mix but I hope we see some more 12/13s in the squad. I wonder if Aidan Morgan maybe be bolter as well. We seem to collect 10/15 so having another specialist 10 to check out could be good.
PUJ hasn't been very convincing. Maybe his twin, although he breaks often. Morgan, same comment as Dmac but way too green (even for the ABs XV).
@Chris Did Foster also hint at players being dropped?
ALB?
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
I recall Ardie went past him too, or have I got that wrong?
I was amazed at how fast Ardie is at full pace (as opposed to acceleration)
Jordan has that ability to go from trotting to Warp factor 9 in about 4 paces but is his top speed more than Ardie's?
Come on man! Ardie is pretty quick for a forward, yeah. But he's nothing compared to your typical outside back, especially one known for his searing pace.
It was actually a genuine question. Some forwards are seriously quick when they are going full whack (Os Du Randt being a good example) - just slow to get there compared to outside backs.
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@Victor-Meldrew yeah I figured it was, but pretty hard to take seriously when you're querying whether Ardie is faster than what was considered one of the fastest players in test rugby last year, then you double down and call Os seriously quick! He's pretty much the opposite of that.
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
LOL at Coles; "de vuelta en tu caja"
Help with the context. I get the translation. Did he actually say it? What time? Was that what led to the shove at handshakes?
No idea to be honest. But he's bloody good at getting under people's skin with his chat.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
For the people saying Jordan was good on the kick chase - what are you seeing? Was it a specific chase or two?
I thought our kick chase was poor, apart from Ardie (who blitzed past a once again half pace Jordan).
Was that the one he missed the tackle?
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
For the people saying Jordan was good on the kick chase - what are you seeing? Was it a specific chase or two?
I thought our kick chase was poor, apart from Ardie (who blitzed past a once again half pace Jordan).
Was that the one he missed the tackle?
I think Ardie fell off and Jordan managed to just hang on?
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones I agree, and Ardie blitzing him on that kick chase was pretty concerning, he should have been leading the charge with Ardie coming in for the turnover. He just doesn't seem as energetic since he was out with Covid - maybe still has some symptoms? Reece is definitely worth a go on the right wing.
Perhaps he has some off the field issues? Happy as Larry after Ellis Park!
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew yeah I figured it was, but pretty hard to take seriously when you're querying whether Ardie is faster than what was considered one of the fastest players in test rugby last year, then you double down and call Os seriously quick! He's pretty much the opposite of that.
Yeah, thinking about it, you're right. Forwards weigh more so are obviously slower.
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@Victor-Meldrew Tupou might have been a better call, but he's still heavier than someone like Whitelock, so obviously slower.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Bones I agree, and Ardie blitzing him on that kick chase was pretty concerning, he should have been leading the charge with Ardie coming in for the turnover. He just doesn't seem as energetic since he was out with Covid - maybe still has some symptoms? Reece is definitely worth a go on the right wing.
Perhaps he has some off the field issues? Happy as Larry after Ellis Park!
I think things just aren't gelling for him and maybe he's a confidence player. He seems to be a bit unlucky with th bounce of the ball of late.
Thought his D was good at times yesterday.
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@Daffy-Jaffy He's bang on, explained it all very fairly IMO.
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@Victor-Meldrew he's a fullback, being played out of position, and he looks like he doesn't really know what to do. Same reason Jordie was a bit shit when he was played on the right wing.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew he's a fullback, being played out of position, and he looks like he doesn't really know what to do. Same reason Jordie was a bit shit when he was played on the right wing.
Jordie was a donkey with his pace exposed.
Jordan looks more like he's not playing instinct, but is trying to think too much
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Argentina II:
@Victor-Meldrew he's a fullback, being played out of position, and he looks like he doesn't really know what to do. Same reason Jordie was a bit shit when he was played on the right wing.
Crap. How many superlatives were thrown his way when on the wing in previous games? How often did he find ways to appear at the right place at the right time and make something out of nothing while on the wing? Heaps.
The guy is in a little funk at the moment and can't find his way into the game. Blaming this on having played well at 15 in Super this year doesn't add up.
I'm not saying he is a bad player just that he seems to be struggling to get into things at the moment. We have seen weak kick chase (a bit better last game) some lethargic looking repositioning, some average high ball catching attempts. This is all a far cry from the guy who would burst into contention from acceleration or creativeness.
He needs to readjust and I think that is why he is being given chances to do so.
This isn't uncommon in players like him that are opportunists. Eventually the ball stops bouncing their way. He has the underlying skills though and maybe he would now do better at 15 but he could still be more effective at 14 than he currently is.
