All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.
I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.
Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually, so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level. We really need to move on.
I'm also not a fan of picking a bench player for their versatility. Yes we need to cover as many positions as possible, but players on the bench should have the ability to make an impact when they come on.
That’s why Marc Ellis went to league.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.
I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.
Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually, so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level. We really need to move on.
I'm also not a fan of picking a bench player for their versatility. Yes we need to cover as many positions as possible, but players on the bench should have the ability to make an impact when they come on.
god thats a depressing state to be in
i don't mind a certain level of versatility, but more like 15/14 or 15/10 or 12/13...limited utility
@MN5 said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.
I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.
Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually, so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level. We really need to move on.
I'm also not a fan of picking a bench player for their versatility. Yes we need to cover as many positions as possible, but players on the bench should have the ability to make an impact when they come on.
That’s why Marc Ellis went to league.
thats what it feels like when we have guys that dont specialise, feels like an bog standard like of league backline
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@Crazy-Horse yeah I thought he was, he had a very tidy game. R Ioane probably matched him as he also had a very sound performance.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level
Is he though?
Of his tests he has played mainly 12 hasn't he, he has utility value, although aside from his debut at FB largely untested?
The coaches clearly rate him at 12, I don't, but see he could cover several positions from the bench.
All being fit, I'd have him behind Goodhue and Tupaea at 12, and even RTS too who has highest ceiling of the 4 IMO.
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i really wish the AB's coaches would learn there is often a difference between a good bench/utility and a starter
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@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
i really which the AB's coaches would learn there is often a difference between a good bench/utility and a starter
I’m gonna have to be a grammar Nazi there as my eyes are hurting
wish
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
i really which the AB's coaches would learn there is often a difference between a good bench/utility and a starter
I’m gonna have to be a grammar Nazi there as my eyes are hurting
wish
corrected....but that would be spelling....not grammar
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@Bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
QT played on the wing for the Chiefs out of necessity (covid/injuries). He did reasonably well, but he doesn't have the speed to be an international winger. Yes, he can play centre, but as @gt12 says, it is not his preferred position.
I also don't think Havili is the utility player people think he is for the ABs. He isn't going to play fullback ahead of JB, Jordan or even BB, or 1st 5 ahead of BB/Mo'unga.
Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually, so seems to be getting picked because he can play a lot of positions to an OK level. We really need to move on.
I'm also not a fan of picking a bench player for their versatility. Yes we need to cover as many positions as possible, but players on the bench should have the ability to make an impact when they come on.
I don’t think that’s the case. Since returning to the ABs last year he has only been used at 2nd 5. There was an issue with 2nd 5 with Laumape not being preferred and an injury to ALB.
Even when he’s come off the bench, eg France test he played at 2nd 5 despite replacing Jordan. They moved other players.
I think his best is definitely good enough and it’s not his versatility of being able to cover other positions that is the reason they select him, but that he provides a different type of 2nd 5 to Goodhue, ALB and QT.
For me Havili is a starting player or not in the 23.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
For me Havili is
a starting player ornot in the 23.Agreed
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually,
Come on man. I get everyone likes to pile in on Dave because he ended last season pretty shabbily - but that's just not true.
A few seasons ago he was the best fullback in super rugby... for the winning side. Last year he was the best 12 in the country, but ended up not working out for the ABs towards the end.
Who's to say he couldn't have done exactly the same role Tupaea did on Saturday? New game plan and all...
He's got some excellent attributes and if we can find a way to have him shine like he does for the saders then it could be great for the ABs. His vision and distribution is brilliant.
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The question is do we see Havs as our 12 come WC, clearly the Fern does not think so. QT, ALB, RTS, Goodhue are better options and should be getting the time there. I am slightly more concerned about 13 at the moment as RI is turning into Aaron Smith in that there is daylight between him and the next player. They missed a trick not bringing Sullivan into the squad IMO.
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@ACT-Crusader TBH, none of Goodhue, Tupaea, Havili really seem like impact players from the bench.
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@ACT-Crusader they definitely think 12 is his best position, but I think they like the fact he can cover multiple positions even as a starter as it makes it easier for them to pick their bench players when those extra positions are covered already. I'm also not convinced his best is good enough, I'd say adequate, though he hasn't really proven himself against top tier opposition. Was good against the Tier 2 teams and decent against the Wallabies then got badly found out after that.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
If QT gets dropped after that performance thrn these selectors can get fucked
Totally agree. Havili may have more all-round game but has a tendency to go flaky under pressure. QT was absolutely rock solid last week against some world-class opponents who will be really up for it this week.
We'll need that composure. Foster should stick with him.
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@chimoaus said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
The question is do we see Havs as our 12 come WC, clearly the Fern does not think so. QT, ALB, RTS, Goodhue are better options and should be getting the time there. I am slightly more concerned about 13 at the moment as RI is turning into Aaron Smith in that there is daylight between him and the next player. They missed a trick not bringing Sullivan into the squad IMO.
They’ve got Goodhue in the squad as a midfield option.
Ioane is still only 25 so has years of rugby ahead of him. The more game time the better in my view. The odd rest here or there, but if we get 103 tests out of him like Nugget, then that is a very good thing for AB rugby.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Ioane is still only 25 so has years of rugby ahead of him. The more game time the better in my view
That's actually quite scary when you think at how he's developed as a 13 in the last year.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
@No-Quarter said in All Blacks v Ireland - 2nd Test:
Yep, Havili is a jack of all trades master of none. He's not really good enough in any of the positions individually,
Come on man. I get everyone likes to pile in on Dave because he ended last season pretty shabbily - but that's just not true.
A few seasons ago he was the best fullback in super rugby... for the winning side. Last year he was the best 12 in the country, but ended up not working out for the ABs towards the end.
Who's to say he couldn't have done exactly the same role Tupaea did on Saturday? New game plan and all...
He's got some excellent attributes and if we can find a way to have him shine like he does for the saders then it could be great for the ABs. His vision and distribution is brilliant.
who are you and what have you done with Bones?
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@Victor-Meldrew given historically our midfielders really don't hit thier straps until 27 or so...
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Havili seems to have taken the main brunt of the ABs failing at the end of the season last year while others have been more "teflon-like" in regards to fan dissatisfaction. QT didn't fire a shot at the end of last season either. Havili has shown he is a quality 2nd five at the beginning of 2021 test season and in the final stages of 2022 SR where he was the complete package.
I am not sure he is the best in combination with BB though....... -
@Old-Samurai-Jack thats actually fair, i remember thinking our 9/10 was taking an absolute AGE in the france game to feed the backline and spent the whole game just shovelling shit onto the midfield well behind the advantage line and often with several defender bearing down on them, real hospital pass stuff
