Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones Rennie. The big fish that got away.
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job, and I liked him as a super coach, (when he had right support ie Smith) still to be convinced at next level just yet.
I am a bit of a Joseph as well as Schmidt fan, but he was approached ny NZR after WC but was struggling with the whole test coaching experience thing apparently, and needed a break.
The whole Stuart Lancaster thing about NZ only looking inwards I believe just him trying to get a little attention. I not sure who all these top coaches who are available from other countries are anyway, I think quite often seemingly NZ is looked to by a few countries as the plave to get coaches from? IE Rennie was offered Aus job before it was even open etc.
The ABs had no trouble bringing in Mick Byrne when they thought he had something to add to what they required, and I will ask who are these other coaches that should be coaching them from around the world? -
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Cotter, Jono Gibbes, O'Halloran, Boyd, Evans might be a few I'd like to have around. I doubt that some of them would come back (such as Evans and Gibbes), and I imagine that Suntory treats O'Halloran very well.
As a defence coach, even cue-ball might be useful.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job
He jumped because it was clear he had nowhere to go in NZ. The same thing happened with the Canes, he "jumped" to the Chiefs because he was overlooked for the Hammettuer.
TBF, the Oz job is probably a fairly difficult one. They're kind of top tier but every big name coach has struggled with them since Rod Maqueen. Rennie is a much better coach then Foster, yet I don't think he can win the Bledisloe.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job
He jumped because it was clear he had nowhere to go in NZ. The same thing happened with the Canes, he "jumped" to the Chiefs because he was overlooked for the Hammettuer.
TBF, the Oz job is probably a fairly difficult one. They're kind of top tier but every big name coach has struggled with them since Rod Maqueen. Rennie is a much better coach then Foster, yet I don't think he can win the Bledisloe.
Disagree, how did he know, he had signed with Aus 9 months before NZ job was available. To be honest like players, if coaches think it easier to get job overseas than even tp apply, are they what we want as coaches? At least when Deans went , he applied fpr AB job before. And Rennie was probably right, he was not top of list in NZ, and I will bet you or almost any poster who suddenly became Rennie fans weren't yelling then that he should be next AB coach. The only person I saw called for from internet experts was Razor, even Schmidt's name wasn't bandied around on net, until he came back to NZ, and NZR had approached him early I believe and as I said he was apparently mentally struggling with test rugby coaching!
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@dan54 Not sure about Stuart Lancaster’s comments either. I just don’t think we have good coaches right now. If anything they may be insula in that there’s been continuity with the same characters for a while. I mean if Eddie Jones wasn’t coaching England he would be a good person to give feedback on our game but that’s an if.
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@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 Not sure about Stuart Lancaster’s comments either. I just don’t think we have good coaches right now. If anything they may be insula in that there’s been continuity with the same characters for a while. I mean if Eddie Jones wasn’t coaching England he would be a good person to give feedback on our game but that’s an if.
And from what I have seen NZ is one of few countries where you get a few chasing the job. Who stood against Eddie Jones etc? Warren Gatland say he has never applied for a coaching job, they were all offered to him, he says he doesn't have a cv or anything.
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@broughie Yet still when teams want coaches they keep looking at NZ ones , so I not sure how good or bad they are. Pivac got headhunted by Wales, Crowley by Italy, Joeph by Japan and Rennie by Aussie, seem a few countries think we got some good uns though.
I still like the idea of our coaches having experience with a few teams, and preferably s done work in test arena as I think it probably a lot different between super/club level and test level in requirements, at test level I think a lot of it is more like director of coaching rather than hands on? -
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job
He jumped because it was clear he had nowhere to go in NZ. The same thing happened with the Canes, he "jumped" to the Chiefs because he was overlooked for the Hammettuer.
TBF, the Oz job is probably a fairly difficult one. They're kind of top tier but every big name coach has struggled with them since Rod Maqueen. Rennie is a much better coach then Foster, yet I don't think he can win the Bledisloe.
Disagree, how did he know, he had signed with Aus 9 months before NZ job was available. To be honest like players, if coaches think it easier to get job overseas than even tp apply, are they what we want as coaches? At least when Deans went , he applied fpr AB job before. And Rennie was probably right, he was not top of list in NZ, and I will bet you or almost any poster who suddenly became Rennie fans weren't yelling then that he should be next AB coach. The only person I saw called for from internet experts was Razor, even Schmidt's name wasn't bandied around on net, until he came back to NZ, and NZR had approached him early I believe and as I said he was apparently mentally struggling with test rugby coaching!
Of course he knew. Coaches know were they stand and whether they have a chance at a job.
Also, there were lots of fans wanting Rennie as a coach - you would have seen the discussions both here and on PR.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job
He jumped because it was clear he had nowhere to go in NZ. The same thing happened with the Canes, he "jumped" to the Chiefs because he was overlooked for the Hammettuer.
TBF, the Oz job is probably a fairly difficult one. They're kind of top tier but every big name coach has struggled with them since Rod Maqueen. Rennie is a much better coach then Foster, yet I don't think he can win the Bledisloe.
Disagree, how did he know, he had signed with Aus 9 months before NZ job was available. To be honest like players, if coaches think it easier to get job overseas than even tp apply, are they what we want as coaches? At least when Deans went , he applied fpr AB job before. And Rennie was probably right, he was not top of list in NZ, and I will bet you or almost any poster who suddenly became Rennie fans weren't yelling then that he should be next AB coach. The only person I saw called for from internet experts was Razor, even Schmidt's name wasn't bandied around on net, until he came back to NZ, and NZR had approached him early I believe and as I said he was apparently mentally struggling with test rugby coaching!
What utter horseshit, see here
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 Not sure about Stuart Lancaster’s comments either. I just don’t think we have good coaches right now. If anything they may be insula in that there’s been continuity with the same characters for a while. I mean if Eddie Jones wasn’t coaching England he would be a good person to give feedback on our game but that’s an if.
And from what I have seen NZ is one of few countries where you get a few chasing the job. Who stood against Eddie Jones etc? Warren Gatland say he has never applied for a coaching job, they were all offered to him, he says he doesn't have a cv or anything.
Maybe the locals are too scared of the opportunity or potential future liability that comes with the job if they lose. That’s interesting.
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones Rennie. The big fish that got away.
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job, and I liked him as a super coach, (when he had right support ie Smith).
That's the thing isn't it? Rennie's success was very much dependent on the team around him (similar to Henry & even Gatland with Edwards at Wales/Wasps). Rennie had a coaching group of Wayne Smith, Tom Coventry, Andrew Strawbridge & Carl Hoeft from 2012-13, and once Smith left Rennie's Chiefs went from averaging 2 losses per season with Wayne Smith there (2012, 2013) to 6-7 a season.
Jamie Joseph is very similar in that regard as his record at the Highlanders was subpar without the services of Tony Brown, Clarke Dermody (setpiece) & John Preston (skills/backs) than people recall. 2010 (11th), 2011 (10th), 2012 (9th), 2013 (14th). Brown, Dermody, Preston added to coaching staff for 2014 season (5th), 2015 (1st), 2016 (3rd). Overall, Joseph managed a 53% record over 6 seasons, it only came together for them when they appointed outstanding technical coaches to assist Joseph.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job
He jumped because it was clear he had nowhere to go in NZ. The same thing happened with the Canes, he "jumped" to the Chiefs because he was overlooked for the Hammettuer.
TBF, the Oz job is probably a fairly difficult one. They're kind of top tier but every big name coach has struggled with them since Rod Maqueen. Rennie is a much better coach then Foster, yet I don't think he can win the Bledisloe.
Disagree, how did he know, he had signed with Aus 9 months before NZ job was available. To be honest like players, if coaches think it easier to get job overseas than even tp apply, are they what we want as coaches? At least when Deans went , he applied fpr AB job before. And Rennie was probably right, he was not top of list in NZ, and I will bet you or almost any poster who suddenly became Rennie fans weren't yelling then that he should be next AB coach. The only person I saw called for from internet experts was Razor, even Schmidt's name wasn't bandied around on net, until he came back to NZ, and NZR had approached him early I believe and as I said he was apparently mentally struggling with test rugby coaching!
What utter horseshit, see here
Ok fair enough, but certainly don't remember it, obviously , I also must admit I didn't actually really come into Silver Fern back then much at all (not really an excuse I know) , so apologies to all that were involved!! And see Nepia was calling for Rennie back then. Though I still say Rennie disqualified himself by taking Aus job well before AB job was open. I only really recalled most calling for Razor. I do know that all were invited to apply, and seemingly NZR were very keen on Schmidt (according to Hansen) but he wasn't keen. And I repeat anyone who didn't apply whether it Rennie, or whoever because they thought they wouldn't get job is not someone who should coach the ABs, I want someone who has enough belief in his abilities to have a crack. I not into people who wave white flag as a coach or a player!
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
Yep, but being rated by fans doesn't really mean a lot as most of us have favouries without knowing much about what goes on. And the Warrenball was a press term which just showed ho some fans get their ideas from press and don't actually stop and think, he had 2 big centre who were best in Wales, and they took the ball up and set it for forwards (a little like Nonu) and so press came up with a name and so of course 'fans'then got into it.
I always remember how many 'fans'in NZ were spitting tacks and disgusted when Henry and co were reappointed after 2007 WC, don't actually recall too many of those 'fans'saying well mayne they were right when ABs went on to win in 2011 and Robbie Deans went from being the messiah to the devil in Australian rugby circles.
We tend to only see a very small amount of fan's opinions on the net, and they should always be taken with a huge dose of salt! -
I will also add, I not a Foster fan or otherwise, just I know I wasn't part of board that appointed him, don't know how interview went etc etc, and have said before , I have been part of rugby boards from club level to provincial that have appointed coaches, and have always seen how expert people who are outside the whole set up tend to be, so I do admit that until I have the minutes etc of meetings I assume the ones doing the appointing know more than me.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones Rennie. The big fish that got away.
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job, and I liked him as a super coach, (when he had right support ie Smith).
That's the thing isn't it? Rennie's success was very much dependent on the team around him (similar to Henry & even Gatland with Edwards at Wales/Wasps). Rennie had a coaching group of Wayne Smith, Tom Coventry, Andrew Strawbridge & Carl Hoeft from 2012-13, and once Smith left Rennie's Chiefs went from averaging 2 losses per season with Wayne Smith there (2012, 2013) to 6-7 a season.
Jamie Joseph is very similar in that regard as his record at the Highlanders was subpar without the services of Tony Brown, Clarke Dermody (setpiece) & John Preston (skills/backs) than people recall. 2010 (11th), 2011 (10th), 2012 (9th), 2013 (14th). Brown, Dermody, Preston added to coaching staff for 2014 season (5th), 2015 (1st), 2016 (3rd). Overall, Joseph managed a 53% record over 6 seasons, it only came together for them when they appointed outstanding technical coaches to assist Joseph.
Yep ex-pat, so do we give the coaches credit for picking a good team to help them, or do we give the asistants credit for being a good team? Both I believe, I said before I tend to think maybe test coaches are more like DORs than actually straight out coaches. I do seem to recall reading Rennie only standing for Chiefs job at Wayne Smith's pushing and Smith saying he would be his assitant if he did, and Smith went to Chiefs board with that idea I believe.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
We tend to only see a very small amount of fan's opinions on the net, and they should always be taken with a huge dose of salt!
Yeah, Warrenball was a press thing, but I recall my two Welsh mates with serious rugby smarts also agreeing with the general feeling about Gatland and I value their opinions highly. Their view seems to be about lack of creativity and not making the best of his resources.
Came right in the end though, I guess.
