Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@broughie Yet still when teams want coaches they keep looking at NZ ones , so I not sure how good or bad they are. Pivac got headhunted by Wales, Crowley by Italy, Joeph by Japan and Rennie by Aussie, seem a few countries think we got some good uns though.
I still like the idea of our coaches having experience with a few teams, and preferably s done work in test arena as I think it probably a lot different between super/club level and test level in requirements, at test level I think a lot of it is more like director of coaching rather than hands on? -
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job
He jumped because it was clear he had nowhere to go in NZ. The same thing happened with the Canes, he "jumped" to the Chiefs because he was overlooked for the Hammettuer.
TBF, the Oz job is probably a fairly difficult one. They're kind of top tier but every big name coach has struggled with them since Rod Maqueen. Rennie is a much better coach then Foster, yet I don't think he can win the Bledisloe.
Disagree, how did he know, he had signed with Aus 9 months before NZ job was available. To be honest like players, if coaches think it easier to get job overseas than even tp apply, are they what we want as coaches? At least when Deans went , he applied fpr AB job before. And Rennie was probably right, he was not top of list in NZ, and I will bet you or almost any poster who suddenly became Rennie fans weren't yelling then that he should be next AB coach. The only person I saw called for from internet experts was Razor, even Schmidt's name wasn't bandied around on net, until he came back to NZ, and NZR had approached him early I believe and as I said he was apparently mentally struggling with test rugby coaching!
Of course he knew. Coaches know were they stand and whether they have a chance at a job.
Also, there were lots of fans wanting Rennie as a coach - you would have seen the discussions both here and on PR.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job
He jumped because it was clear he had nowhere to go in NZ. The same thing happened with the Canes, he "jumped" to the Chiefs because he was overlooked for the Hammettuer.
TBF, the Oz job is probably a fairly difficult one. They're kind of top tier but every big name coach has struggled with them since Rod Maqueen. Rennie is a much better coach then Foster, yet I don't think he can win the Bledisloe.
Disagree, how did he know, he had signed with Aus 9 months before NZ job was available. To be honest like players, if coaches think it easier to get job overseas than even tp apply, are they what we want as coaches? At least when Deans went , he applied fpr AB job before. And Rennie was probably right, he was not top of list in NZ, and I will bet you or almost any poster who suddenly became Rennie fans weren't yelling then that he should be next AB coach. The only person I saw called for from internet experts was Razor, even Schmidt's name wasn't bandied around on net, until he came back to NZ, and NZR had approached him early I believe and as I said he was apparently mentally struggling with test rugby coaching!
What utter horseshit, see here
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 Not sure about Stuart Lancaster’s comments either. I just don’t think we have good coaches right now. If anything they may be insula in that there’s been continuity with the same characters for a while. I mean if Eddie Jones wasn’t coaching England he would be a good person to give feedback on our game but that’s an if.
And from what I have seen NZ is one of few countries where you get a few chasing the job. Who stood against Eddie Jones etc? Warren Gatland say he has never applied for a coaching job, they were all offered to him, he says he doesn't have a cv or anything.
Maybe the locals are too scared of the opportunity or potential future liability that comes with the job if they lose. That’s interesting.
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones Rennie. The big fish that got away.
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job, and I liked him as a super coach, (when he had right support ie Smith).
That's the thing isn't it? Rennie's success was very much dependent on the team around him (similar to Henry & even Gatland with Edwards at Wales/Wasps). Rennie had a coaching group of Wayne Smith, Tom Coventry, Andrew Strawbridge & Carl Hoeft from 2012-13, and once Smith left Rennie's Chiefs went from averaging 2 losses per season with Wayne Smith there (2012, 2013) to 6-7 a season.
Jamie Joseph is very similar in that regard as his record at the Highlanders was subpar without the services of Tony Brown, Clarke Dermody (setpiece) & John Preston (skills/backs) than people recall. 2010 (11th), 2011 (10th), 2012 (9th), 2013 (14th). Brown, Dermody, Preston added to coaching staff for 2014 season (5th), 2015 (1st), 2016 (3rd). Overall, Joseph managed a 53% record over 6 seasons, it only came together for them when they appointed outstanding technical coaches to assist Joseph.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job
He jumped because it was clear he had nowhere to go in NZ. The same thing happened with the Canes, he "jumped" to the Chiefs because he was overlooked for the Hammettuer.
TBF, the Oz job is probably a fairly difficult one. They're kind of top tier but every big name coach has struggled with them since Rod Maqueen. Rennie is a much better coach then Foster, yet I don't think he can win the Bledisloe.
Disagree, how did he know, he had signed with Aus 9 months before NZ job was available. To be honest like players, if coaches think it easier to get job overseas than even tp apply, are they what we want as coaches? At least when Deans went , he applied fpr AB job before. And Rennie was probably right, he was not top of list in NZ, and I will bet you or almost any poster who suddenly became Rennie fans weren't yelling then that he should be next AB coach. The only person I saw called for from internet experts was Razor, even Schmidt's name wasn't bandied around on net, until he came back to NZ, and NZR had approached him early I believe and as I said he was apparently mentally struggling with test rugby coaching!
What utter horseshit, see here
Ok fair enough, but certainly don't remember it, obviously , I also must admit I didn't actually really come into Silver Fern back then much at all (not really an excuse I know) , so apologies to all that were involved!! And see Nepia was calling for Rennie back then. Though I still say Rennie disqualified himself by taking Aus job well before AB job was open. I only really recalled most calling for Razor. I do know that all were invited to apply, and seemingly NZR were very keen on Schmidt (according to Hansen) but he wasn't keen. And I repeat anyone who didn't apply whether it Rennie, or whoever because they thought they wouldn't get job is not someone who should coach the ABs, I want someone who has enough belief in his abilities to have a crack. I not into people who wave white flag as a coach or a player!
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
Yep, but being rated by fans doesn't really mean a lot as most of us have favouries without knowing much about what goes on. And the Warrenball was a press term which just showed ho some fans get their ideas from press and don't actually stop and think, he had 2 big centre who were best in Wales, and they took the ball up and set it for forwards (a little like Nonu) and so press came up with a name and so of course 'fans'then got into it.
I always remember how many 'fans'in NZ were spitting tacks and disgusted when Henry and co were reappointed after 2007 WC, don't actually recall too many of those 'fans'saying well mayne they were right when ABs went on to win in 2011 and Robbie Deans went from being the messiah to the devil in Australian rugby circles.
We tend to only see a very small amount of fan's opinions on the net, and they should always be taken with a huge dose of salt! -
I will also add, I not a Foster fan or otherwise, just I know I wasn't part of board that appointed him, don't know how interview went etc etc, and have said before , I have been part of rugby boards from club level to provincial that have appointed coaches, and have always seen how expert people who are outside the whole set up tend to be, so I do admit that until I have the minutes etc of meetings I assume the ones doing the appointing know more than me.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@broughie said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones Rennie. The big fish that got away.
Rennie jumped to Aus when they offered him job, and I liked him as a super coach, (when he had right support ie Smith).
That's the thing isn't it? Rennie's success was very much dependent on the team around him (similar to Henry & even Gatland with Edwards at Wales/Wasps). Rennie had a coaching group of Wayne Smith, Tom Coventry, Andrew Strawbridge & Carl Hoeft from 2012-13, and once Smith left Rennie's Chiefs went from averaging 2 losses per season with Wayne Smith there (2012, 2013) to 6-7 a season.
Jamie Joseph is very similar in that regard as his record at the Highlanders was subpar without the services of Tony Brown, Clarke Dermody (setpiece) & John Preston (skills/backs) than people recall. 2010 (11th), 2011 (10th), 2012 (9th), 2013 (14th). Brown, Dermody, Preston added to coaching staff for 2014 season (5th), 2015 (1st), 2016 (3rd). Overall, Joseph managed a 53% record over 6 seasons, it only came together for them when they appointed outstanding technical coaches to assist Joseph.
Yep ex-pat, so do we give the coaches credit for picking a good team to help them, or do we give the asistants credit for being a good team? Both I believe, I said before I tend to think maybe test coaches are more like DORs than actually straight out coaches. I do seem to recall reading Rennie only standing for Chiefs job at Wayne Smith's pushing and Smith saying he would be his assitant if he did, and Smith went to Chiefs board with that idea I believe.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
We tend to only see a very small amount of fan's opinions on the net, and they should always be taken with a huge dose of salt!
Yeah, Warrenball was a press thing, but I recall my two Welsh mates with serious rugby smarts also agreeing with the general feeling about Gatland and I value their opinions highly. Their view seems to be about lack of creativity and not making the best of his resources.
Came right in the end though, I guess.
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@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
Harsh, he is by far the most sucessful Lions coach ever!
But I think the reason we only had 2 people apply for the ABs job was timing. They left it until well late, so would you apply for your dream job with the ABs when, if you don’t get it there’s no decent jobs left (and the encumbent was in a very strong position to take the role)? That’s why Razor went for it, he was good to do some more years at sadres after. I wouldn’t do that, against a stacked deck and the posibility of coaching outer mongolia afterwards as that was the only job left.
IMO NZR did this on purpose, so they could have their choice confirmed. Not their fault only 2 applied, and one doesn’t have any international experience… /tinfoil hat
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@machpants they may have assumed that Shag would win out in Tokyo therefore making Foster's succession feel like a natural step
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@canefan said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@machpants they may have assumed that Shag would win out in Tokyo therefore making Foster's succession feel like a natural step
They must’ve had their eyes closed since 2017 if they thought that! But that could be so
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@machpants said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@canefan said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@machpants they may have assumed that Shag would win out in Tokyo therefore making Foster's succession feel like a natural step
They must’ve had their eyes closed since 2017 if they thought that! But that could be so
NZRFU arrogance
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I agree with @Dan54 about Rennie, as he (Rennie) has said that he was already in discussions with Raelene Castle well before the RWC. I'm not absolving NZR, because they should have been proactive in approaching all potential candidates well in advance of Tokyo.
I've always been bemused about the term "Warrenball" because there are plenty of examples of teams he has coached that played expansive rugby. Wasps and Waikato being two. Maybe he was more pragmatic at international level but I don't think that Wales have changed too much since he left. So it is now Pivacball?
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@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
I agree with @Dan54 about Rennie, as he (Rennie) has said that he was already in discussions with Raelene Castle well before the RWC. I'm not absolving NZR, because they should have been proactive in approaching all potential candidates well in advance of Tokyo.
I've always been bemused about the term "Warrenball" because there are plenty of examples of teams he has coached that played expansive rugby. Wasps and Waikato being two. Maybe he was more pragmatic at international level but I don't think that Wales have changed too much since he left. So it is now Pivacball?
Yep well many of net experts have to wait for media to come up with name to jump on board mate. You will notice that some of our press even used the Warrenball crap when Lions were here in 2017, and then same on net. If anyone thought the Lions went so well by playing Warrenball ie a big centre carrying it up etc, they not watching the game. The other think about Warrenball, how many keep harping it the way ABs should play, and moaned about Laumape etc going because he played it to a "T".
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@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
We tend to only see a very small amount of fan's opinions on the net, and they should always be taken with a huge dose of salt!
Yeah, Warrenball was a press thing, but I recall my two Welsh mates with serious rugby smarts also agreeing with the general feeling about Gatland and I value their opinions highly. Their view seems to be about lack of creativity and not making the best of his resources.
Came right in the end though, I guess.
Funnily enough by best mate is a Welshman too Vic, a real rugby man, him and I have been known to chase rugby all over the place to actually watch it, and he was always keen on what Gatland did, but didn't like some of Hansen's decisions.I always remember talking to a load of Welshmen during Lions tour to Aussie in 2001, and them asking me how NZ let Henry go, they thought he was great. I myself reckoned Hanry got better as an international coach AFTER theLions and Wales, as did Hansen, who says he learnt so much doing that job.
And even Razor says he would like to get international experience, why he wanted to go as an assistant on Lions tour to SA.And I know it's thought that promoting from within is not the thing to do by many in here, I will bet that Dan McKellar get's the Wallabies job after Rennie, RA is already hinting strongly that is the case.
And already Rennie is starting to cop it a bit in at least one Aussie forum.
