All Blacks 2021
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
And it is not that we lost to them but the convincing way in which we lost to them (Ireland, Argentina, France) and after we had plenty of time to improve and change strategies.
But the same could be said of the coaching team in '09. And the coaching team in 2012/3. As for convincing losses, remember England in 2012, the Wobbles in Hong Kong?
I hear the sound of goal-posts being moved.....
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Our paymakers in the backs are lacking some composure... they need to be reading situations better & executing more accurately.
Yeah, Foster made that point.
But what do you think is causing them to read situations so badly and executing more accurately? What do they need to do - apart from playing better - to improve the situation?
The coach can't think for the players out on the field - it's completely up to the playmakers to show some smarts/focus during a game...
Agreed. And I think it's down to the big gap between handling pressure at Super Rugby and Test levels. And that's probably been going on for some time and was masked by the likes of Conrad, Kev, Nonu, Carter, and even Cruden. A lot of the current players are brilliant but don't give you that rock-solid feeling under pressure they did. ALB & now Jordie being the exception - and Finlay Christie seemed to handle the pressure pretty well too
Perhaps we should put more emphasis on rounded players with mental toughness rather than whiz-bangery.
if a player keeps on making the same thoughtless errors they don't deserve to start, drop him & give someone else a crack.
But if the domestic Super Rugby produces the same sort of players with the same problems.....?
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@victor-meldrew even our supposed break through player of the year seems more likely to drop the ball than catch it.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew even our supposed break through player of the year seems more likely to drop the ball than catch it.
George Bridge?
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@victor-meldrew you are skating on thin ice
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@victor-meldrew Pod system needs a massive tweak. It's predictable and often static these days. I realize it was a reaction to rule changes designed to negate McCaw but that kind of backfired in some ways as he had slowed a little so clearing quick ruck ball became less of a priority. Now getting the ball to a front rower or a lock to set a pod way behind the advantage line is proving largely ineffective. So maybe breaking up the pod and back to ruck and run. There was a time when we were weak at maul ball too - particularly the start of 92 and suddenly we had fitzy and MJ doing powerful pick and goes at the advantage line and it threw out the Aussies in test 3 that year and the Bokke couldn't handle it for the first hour of their welcome back match too. We drifted in and out of that through to 95 when it was modus operandi.
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@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew you are skating on thin ice
Better get off the ice, then, and use the Brid.....
Nope. Won't say it
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@reddog said in All Blacks 2021:
So maybe breaking up the pod and back to ruck and run.
Really interesting point
I may be wrong, but I think there was a period in the French Test (start of 2nd half?) when we did exactly that. Then the backs buggered things up, we lost momentum and went back to what we'd been doing for years.
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@victor-meldrew Still haven't seen that match as was in one of those real strict lockdown things in HK that happen during outbreaks - when I heard result and read comments I haven't had compulsion to view. For ruck and run you need a sharp as a tack half too. Smith was underdone I assume but he ran a ruck and run game with Cruds and the Watu back in the day so can definitely do it.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
And it is not that we lost to them but the convincing way in which we lost to them (Ireland, Argentina, France) and after we had plenty of time to improve and change strategies.
But the same could be said of the coaching team in '09. And the coaching team in 2012/3. As for convincing losses, remember England in 2012, the Wobbles in Hong Kong?
I hear the sound of goal-posts being moved.....
you mean your 2009 goalposts?! The ones you brought into the conversation?!
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
And it is not that we lost to them but the convincing way in which we lost to them (Ireland, Argentina, France) and after we had plenty of time to improve and change strategies.
But the same could be said of the coaching team in '09. And the coaching team in 2012/3. As for convincing losses, remember England in 2012, the Wobbles in Hong Kong?
I hear the sound of goal-posts being moved.....
you mean your 2009 goalposts?! The ones you brought into the conversation?!
No. After you criticised him for saying he had the coaching group he wanted yet lost 2 games, I pointed out that the coaching team in 2009 had a much, much worse loss record than Foster and also mentioned we had been close to losing against Ireland & Argentina long before Foster.
It's a pretty fair argument to say the the nature of the losses were uniquely bad under Foster (which can be debated as I pointed out). But it's a different argument from the one you used earlier - but that's cool as it's obviously in the best traditions of the Fern.....
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Our paymakers in the backs are lacking some composure... they need to be reading situations better & executing more accurately.
Yeah, Foster made that point.
But what do you think is causing them to read situations so badly and executing more accurately? What do they need to do - apart from playing better - to improve the situation?
The coach can't think for the players out on the field - it's completely up to the playmakers to show some smarts/focus during a game... if a player keeps on making the same thoughtless errors they don't deserve to start, drop him & give someone else a crack.
Unless you have a coach who is devoid of idea's and doesn't trust his players enough.
One thing I have seen disappear under Foster and co is our ability to play heads up Rugby and play what is in front of us. It used to be one of our strengths.The ability to see or create space by giving the players the confidence to play what they see,Vision is missing, we miss a lot of attacking opportunities by not backing ourselves.Lack of confidence in the Coaches and game plan maybe.We are definitely not helped by having a coach that has very little insight - but it's also on the players to play thoughtful rugby... totally agree, we play at our best when we plays what's in front of us, especially with the fast paced game we have.
Do you not think we are losing the ability to play heads up rugby because our players skill level seems to of dropped over last 4-5 years. Watch super rugby these days and ask yourself when the last time we saw NZ teams play down the blinside and be able to execute 2-3 passes at speed and beat defenders with speed of pass etc even in the 5m tramline. Something I have been noticing since about 2017-18, our super teams seem a lot more structured, or predictable.
Yeah, fair points... the game isn't helped though with the breakdown becoming even more of a clusterfuck each season because they keep changing the laws there, also refs are letting all sides stand well offside way too much.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Our paymakers in the backs are lacking some composure... they need to be reading situations better & executing more accurately.
Yeah, Foster made that point.
But what do you think is causing them to read situations so badly and executing more accurately? What do they need to do - apart from playing better - to improve the situation?
The coach can't think for the players out on the field - it's completely up to the playmakers to show some smarts/focus during a game... if a player keeps on making the same thoughtless errors they don't deserve to start, drop him & give someone else a crack.
Unless you have a coach who is devoid of idea's and doesn't trust his players enough.
One thing I have seen disappear under Foster and co is our ability to play heads up Rugby and play what is in front of us. It used to be one of our strengths.The ability to see or create space by giving the players the confidence to play what they see,Vision is missing, we miss a lot of attacking opportunities by not backing ourselves.Lack of confidence in the Coaches and game plan maybe.We are definitely not helped by having a coach that has very little insight - but it's also on the players to play thoughtful rugby... totally agree, we play at our best when we plays what's in front of us, especially with the fast paced game we have.
Do you not think we are losing the ability to play heads up rugby because our players skill level seems to of dropped over last 4-5 years. Watch super rugby these days and ask yourself when the last time we saw NZ teams play down the blinside and be able to execute 2-3 passes at speed and beat defenders with speed of pass etc even in the 5m tramline. Something I have been noticing since about 2017-18, our super teams seem a lot more structured, or predictable.
Yeah, fair points... the game isn't helped though with the breakdown becoming even more of a clusterfuck each season because they keep changing the laws there, also refs are letting all sides stand well offside way too much.
I think the rush defence (and very skinny offside laws being applied) really is what stops teams being able to play the game where you set up a ruck in midfield etc like we used to, as players are getting caught at or behind the gainline, which negates quick ball. I also believe it is why we getting the box kick so often from halfbacks, as biggest crime is passing to someone who will get knocked over behind gainline.
Well that's what I think is causing it anyway. -
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Our paymakers in the backs are lacking some composure... they need to be reading situations better & executing more accurately.
Yeah, Foster made that point.
But what do you think is causing them to read situations so badly and executing more accurately? What do they need to do - apart from playing better - to improve the situation?
The coach can't think for the players out on the field - it's completely up to the playmakers to show some smarts/focus during a game... if a player keeps on making the same thoughtless errors they don't deserve to start, drop him & give someone else a crack.
Unless you have a coach who is devoid of idea's and doesn't trust his players enough.
One thing I have seen disappear under Foster and co is our ability to play heads up Rugby and play what is in front of us. It used to be one of our strengths.The ability to see or create space by giving the players the confidence to play what they see,Vision is missing, we miss a lot of attacking opportunities by not backing ourselves.Lack of confidence in the Coaches and game plan maybe.We are definitely not helped by having a coach that has very little insight - but it's also on the players to play thoughtful rugby... totally agree, we play at our best when we plays what's in front of us, especially with the fast paced game we have.
Do you not think we are losing the ability to play heads up rugby because our players skill level seems to of dropped over last 4-5 years. Watch super rugby these days and ask yourself when the last time we saw NZ teams play down the blinside and be able to execute 2-3 passes at speed and beat defenders with speed of pass etc even in the 5m tramline. Something I have been noticing since about 2017-18, our super teams seem a lot more structured, or predictable.
Yeah, fair points... the game isn't helped though with the breakdown becoming even more of a clusterfuck each season because they keep changing the laws there, also refs are letting all sides stand well offside way too much.
I think the rush defence (and very skinny offside laws being applied) really is what stops teams being able to play the game where you set up a ruck in midfield etc like we used to, as players are getting caught at or behind the gainline, which negates quick ball. I also believe it is why we getting the box kick so often from halfbacks, as biggest crime is passing to someone who will get knocked over behind gainline.
Well that's what I think is causing it anyway.Didn't we start last year with refs changing to judging if the defence was 'clearly onside' rather than 'clearly offside'? That made a big difference in that defences had to halt for a split second.
As the year progressed this disappeared (possibly because it was a SH thing and we had NH refs?) and we didn't really change our attack because of the change.
Maybe it is time to make the 5 metre rule apply to rucks as well? -
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Our paymakers in the backs are lacking some composure... they need to be reading situations better & executing more accurately.
Yeah, Foster made that point.
But what do you think is causing them to read situations so badly and executing more accurately? What do they need to do - apart from playing better - to improve the situation?
The coach can't think for the players out on the field - it's completely up to the playmakers to show some smarts/focus during a game...
Agreed. And I think it's down to the big gap between handling pressure at Super Rugby and Test levels. And that's probably been going on for some time and was masked by the likes of Conrad, Kev, Nonu, Carter, and even Cruden. A lot of the current players are brilliant but don't give you that rock-solid feeling under pressure they did. ALB & now Jordie being the exception - and Finlay Christie seemed to handle the pressure pretty well too
Perhaps we should put more emphasis on rounded players with mental toughness rather than whiz-bangery.
if a player keeps on making the same thoughtless errors they don't deserve to start, drop him & give someone else a crack.
But if the domestic Super Rugby produces the same sort of players with the same problems.....?
Reckon the gap isn't that big in terms of mental toughness between Super Rugby & international as there's a lot of international players involved in the Super Comp, but there certainly is a step up.
Yeah, doesn't matter how good a players skill sets are, if they don't have that mental toughness they're not going to perform well at international level... but our current playmakers do have the mental toughness & skill sets as they've shown plenty of times before, reckon BB is better suited as a 15 though, at times these players need to be dropped so it gives them a good shake up, making them refocus & wanting to get back into the starting team.
We have very good depth, if any of these Super Rugby players want to get selected in the AB squad they know they have to execute their skill sets accurately & have the mindset to handle the real pressure situations... this current coaching staff are clueless, so we need to select a good coaching that will then select the right players from our Super comp etc.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Our paymakers in the backs are lacking some composure... they need to be reading situations better & executing more accurately.
Yeah, Foster made that point.
But what do you think is causing them to read situations so badly and executing more accurately? What do they need to do - apart from playing better - to improve the situation?
The coach can't think for the players out on the field - it's completely up to the playmakers to show some smarts/focus during a game... if a player keeps on making the same thoughtless errors they don't deserve to start, drop him & give someone else a crack.
Unless you have a coach who is devoid of idea's and doesn't trust his players enough.
One thing I have seen disappear under Foster and co is our ability to play heads up Rugby and play what is in front of us. It used to be one of our strengths.The ability to see or create space by giving the players the confidence to play what they see,Vision is missing, we miss a lot of attacking opportunities by not backing ourselves.Lack of confidence in the Coaches and game plan maybe.We are definitely not helped by having a coach that has very little insight - but it's also on the players to play thoughtful rugby... totally agree, we play at our best when we plays what's in front of us, especially with the fast paced game we have.
Do you not think we are losing the ability to play heads up rugby because our players skill level seems to of dropped over last 4-5 years. Watch super rugby these days and ask yourself when the last time we saw NZ teams play down the blinside and be able to execute 2-3 passes at speed and beat defenders with speed of pass etc even in the 5m tramline. Something I have been noticing since about 2017-18, our super teams seem a lot more structured, or predictable.
Yeah, fair points... the game isn't helped though with the breakdown becoming even more of a clusterfuck each season because they keep changing the laws there, also refs are letting all sides stand well offside way too much.
I think the rush defence (and very skinny offside laws being applied) really is what stops teams being able to play the game where you set up a ruck in midfield etc like we used to, as players are getting caught at or behind the gainline, which negates quick ball. I also believe it is why we getting the box kick so often from halfbacks, as biggest crime is passing to someone who will get knocked over behind gainline.
Well that's what I think is causing it anyway.Yeah, which is basically allowing too much offside play, all this nonsense is ruining the game.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@reddog said in All Blacks 2021:
So maybe breaking up the pod and back to ruck and run.
Really interesting point
I may be wrong, but I think there was a period in the French Test (start of 2nd half?) when we did exactly that. Then the backs buggered things up, we lost momentum and went back to what we'd been doing for years.
yeah, after the break in the french game the forwards kept to close and we made great yards, i remember very quickly swinging back "here we come!"
thats the lead up to the "awesome" little play where were about 5 from their line...smith to Richie on the blind side...who steps back behind the ruck and passes to QT.....who then tries to step back behind richie to go back to the blind....who is already behind the ruck and gets flattened by some front rowers who have walked half a dozen steps upfield with quizzical looks on their faces trying to figure out what exactly these pretty boys were trying to do
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Our paymakers in the backs are lacking some composure... they need to be reading situations better & executing more accurately.
Yeah, Foster made that point.
But what do you think is causing them to read situations so badly and executing more accurately? What do they need to do - apart from playing better - to improve the situation?
The coach can't think for the players out on the field - it's completely up to the playmakers to show some smarts/focus during a game... if a player keeps on making the same thoughtless errors they don't deserve to start, drop him & give someone else a crack.
Unless you have a coach who is devoid of idea's and doesn't trust his players enough.
One thing I have seen disappear under Foster and co is our ability to play heads up Rugby and play what is in front of us. It used to be one of our strengths.The ability to see or create space by giving the players the confidence to play what they see,Vision is missing, we miss a lot of attacking opportunities by not backing ourselves.Lack of confidence in the Coaches and game plan maybe.We are definitely not helped by having a coach that has very little insight - but it's also on the players to play thoughtful rugby... totally agree, we play at our best when we plays what's in front of us, especially with the fast paced game we have.
Do you not think we are losing the ability to play heads up rugby because our players skill level seems to of dropped over last 4-5 years. Watch super rugby these days and ask yourself when the last time we saw NZ teams play down the blinside and be able to execute 2-3 passes at speed and beat defenders with speed of pass etc even in the 5m tramline. Something I have been noticing since about 2017-18, our super teams seem a lot more structured, or predictable.
Yeah, fair points... the game isn't helped though with the breakdown becoming even more of a clusterfuck each season because they keep changing the laws there, also refs are letting all sides stand well offside way too much.
I think the rush defence (and very skinny offside laws being applied) really is what stops teams being able to play the game where you set up a ruck in midfield etc like we used to, as players are getting caught at or behind the gainline, which negates quick ball. I also believe it is why we getting the box kick so often from halfbacks, as biggest crime is passing to someone who will get knocked over behind gainline.
Well that's what I think is causing it anyway.Didn't we start last year with refs changing to judging if the defence was 'clearly onside' rather than 'clearly offside'? That made a big difference in that defences had to halt for a split second.
As the year progressed this disappeared (possibly because it was a SH thing and we had NH refs?) and we didn't really change our attack because of the change.
Maybe it is time to make the 5 metre rule apply to rucks as well?That's right the refs were much stricter on the offside rule for a while, so we got much better quality rugby to watch, unfortunately the refs didn't apply that rule for that long... it's always up to the playmakers to adapt to any situation though.
Yeah, they should apply a 5 metre rule to rucks or at least make them stay back more - it's a refs job to consistently apply the offside rule in every game... always make me laugh when a ref has an absolute bloody howler, yet they are not very often punished for it by standing them down for a few weeks.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
Maybe it is time to make the 5 metre rule apply to rucks as well?
You'll just have people crying that they aren't five metres back. The solution is to have competent officials, not keep changing the rules.
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Our paymakers in the backs are lacking some composure... they need to be reading situations better & executing more accurately.
Yeah, Foster made that point.
But what do you think is causing them to read situations so badly and executing more accurately? What do they need to do - apart from playing better - to improve the situation?
The coach can't think for the players out on the field - it's completely up to the playmakers to show some smarts/focus during a game... if a player keeps on making the same thoughtless errors they don't deserve to start, drop him & give someone else a crack.
Unless you have a coach who is devoid of idea's and doesn't trust his players enough.
One thing I have seen disappear under Foster and co is our ability to play heads up Rugby and play what is in front of us. It used to be one of our strengths.The ability to see or create space by giving the players the confidence to play what they see,Vision is missing, we miss a lot of attacking opportunities by not backing ourselves.Lack of confidence in the Coaches and game plan maybe.We are definitely not helped by having a coach that has very little insight - but it's also on the players to play thoughtful rugby... totally agree, we play at our best when we plays what's in front of us, especially with the fast paced game we have.
Do you not think we are losing the ability to play heads up rugby because our players skill level seems to of dropped over last 4-5 years. Watch super rugby these days and ask yourself when the last time we saw NZ teams play down the blinside and be able to execute 2-3 passes at speed and beat defenders with speed of pass etc even in the 5m tramline. Something I have been noticing since about 2017-18, our super teams seem a lot more structured, or predictable.
Yeah, fair points... the game isn't helped though with the breakdown becoming even more of a clusterfuck each season because they keep changing the laws there, also refs are letting all sides stand well offside way too much.
I think the rush defence (and very skinny offside laws being applied) really is what stops teams being able to play the game where you set up a ruck in midfield etc like we used to, as players are getting caught at or behind the gainline, which negates quick ball. I also believe it is why we getting the box kick so often from halfbacks, as biggest crime is passing to someone who will get knocked over behind gainline.
Well that's what I think is causing it anyway.Didn't we start last year with refs changing to judging if the defence was 'clearly onside' rather than 'clearly offside'? That made a big difference in that defences had to halt for a split second.
As the year progressed this disappeared (possibly because it was a SH thing and we had NH refs?) and we didn't really change our attack because of the change.
Maybe it is time to make the 5 metre rule apply to rucks as well?That's right the refs were much stricter on the offside rule for a while, so we got much better quality rugby to watch, unfortunately the refs didn't apply that rule for that long... it's always up to the playmakers to adapt to any situation though.
Yeah, they should apply a 5 metre rule to rucks or at least make them stay back more - it's a refs job to consistently apply the offside rule in every game... always make me laugh when a ref has an absolute bloody howler, yet they are not very often punished for it by standing them down for a few weeks.
I guess that the problem with a 5 metre rule at rucks is that it becomes difficult to rule on in a fast fluid situation so teams will push it as much as they can and we will get just as much inconsistency depending on the ref team.
I liked the 'clearly onside' method if applied strictly. Tell teams that if the AR can't see a clear gap behind the last foot you will be pinged.
While this will give us better ball in hand rugby there is still a need to teams to be better at exploiting space behind the D.
If a 10 can put the ball into space and make the D (and forwards) have to scramble back they eventually that pays off. You may have to cede possession a couple of times but applying pressure and forcing errors can be valuable. More valuable than recycling on the gain line until you kick it away.
