Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Robertson has a proven ability for taking previously struggling sides & transforming them completely, NZ should be his next assignment.
He inherited a dead last Sumner side & turned them into premier champions within 2 years, he transformed a previously 7th placed Crusaders outfit (2015, 2016), and a NZ-U20 side that hadn't won the World Championship in 5 years.
Crusaders without Scott Robertson - (2015/2016) 7th, 7th.
Crusaders with Scott Robertson - (2017/2018/2019/2020/2021) 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st.
I'd argue that his successes in 2020 & 2021 mattered slightly more because I think on paper the Blues were a slightly more talented team, man for man.
Granted his Crusaders are still strong but the fact that he's remained so dominant without a sophomore slump indicates that he's constantly evolving and innovating.
His record with the Crusaders is 71-4-9, which is crazy.
Todd Blackadder at 74-2-40, and Deans at 88-1-30.
It would great to see Razor involved in the All Black's coaching set-up in some capacity between now & the next World Cup. Perhaps in a defensive/breakdown focused advisory role that would aptly suit his technical strengths. He could be lurking in the background, out of the limelight for a decent period (like Wayne Smith) & equipped to take the main job after 2023.
Would you say Blackadder also had a stronger team? I understand it is complicated by ABs being rested, the earthquake etc..
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Blackadder had a stronger squad for his entire 9 year tenure, especially in the forwards.
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The (2009-2014) Crusader's squads could be considered the most stacked Super Rugby sides ever. Their playing roster during that period would've dismantled many international teams.
A few names that spring to mind:
Thorn, Carter, McCaw, Jack, Flynn, N.Manu, P.Osborne, T.Waldrom, Ellis, Fruean, Guilford, J.Payne, Maitland, Fotuali'i, SBW, Crotty, Laulala, S.Christie, 4x Whitelock brothers, Bird, Slade, Heinz, Nadolo, Taufua, (peak) Romano/Dagg/Crockett/Moody/2x Franks brothers/Crotty/Read/Whitelock/Todd, etc.. (as Razor inherited all of these guys in their 30's & well past their best-by-dates).
Imagine having a squad of that magnitude for season upon season & and only managing a modest 63% win-record.
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Ah OK. You were more concerned with the selection process and the outcome rather than GH being involved and commenting on Foster's record to date.
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@nostrildamus Yep mate regardless of what you and I think, the decision was between Foster and Razor the only 2 that applied, and without knowing what was asked, and actually been part of their teams and coached by them etc, how the hell would we know who is best?
Usually senior team members of the team are screened for their opinion to, and I guessing they may have a slightly more idea of coaching abilities of coaches than us.
As I said I always liked idea of someone else (JJ and TB), but am just smart enough to know I probably don't know more than the ones doing the selecting of coaches etc.
And while Foster is coaching the ABs he is part of the team I support so I will support him too! -
@ploughboy said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
As an aside, the missus of a Welsh friend is a headteacher who went to a non-rugby talk by Henry on the importance of sport and non-sport extra-curricular activities in schools. She said he was way ahead of the curve in his thinking on the subject and probably the best educationalist she has ever heard.
He may have learnt that at Auckland Grammar from head John Graham who said extra curricular made the boys much better at planning their time etc.
If he asked just as tough comments of Foster all good.
who would know if he wasnt asked just as hard questions foster hasnt run to media tell .
To be fair to Razor, I don't think he really ran to media, more was maybe just asked why he thought he missed out by Will Greenwood, and Foster obviously wouldn't get same question as he got job.
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My take on the whole thing on who got the job, is everyone has favourites, Razor is from Canterbury, and remember the shit when Henry was reappointed after 2007 over Deans? I not suggesting only people from Canterbury are only ones who want Razor by any means , but we have history in NZ of when someone from down that way misses selection for a rugby team a few from down there get pretty rabid and it tend to get people taking sides and being anti one or the other.
Hell I remember when Hewson got fullback job , when ABs had a test in Chch the so called fans were outside the ABs hotel the night before test chanting Hewson's a piston wristed gibbon etc, and coming over (I was residing in Oz at time) in 2010 to a test, my mates from Aus couldn't believe the bitterness against AB's coaching staff and how many shopkeepers etc were saying they were supporting the Wallabies.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
this is the bit where, despite being in the 'Foster must go' camp (and one fo the founding members, I have to add Wayne Smith's perspective.
Smith in a radio interview I heard prior to the selection basically said you can't judge him on where he was, as people grow and develop. The clear undercurrent was that he brought a lot to the table, and the chiefs was a long time ago.
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
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Fozzie seems to embrace the whole social media thing, seeing a few clips from him on the ABs IG page over the weeks.
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
Usually senior team members of the team are screened for their opinion to, and I guessing they may have a slightly more idea of coaching abilities of coaches than us.
Yeah I think this is something likely often overlooked.
Sure players might like him, but they will know if he is a good coach or not, and its on them if they didnt give an honest appraisal when asked.
Ask any player and they always have a fave coach that they got to work with, may not be able to say exactly why they were the best, but they know.
I've heard guys that worked under Henry citing him as the best (this was from guys that only played provincial and super, not Int)
For me I got to work under Bryce Woodward for some 7s training, and for me it was how he simplified things, how he delivered the message and you wanted to do well.
I saw this at U14/16 level when I was coaching my sons team, we'd have them doing drills, moves etc, they'd be doing them well, but Tony Monaghan or David Holwell have them do the exact same drill or move, but they get them doing it so much better.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus Yep mate regardless of what you and I think, the decision was between Foster and Razor the only 2 that applied, and without knowing what was asked, and actually been part of their teams and coached by them etc, how the hell would we know who is best?
Its a head coach job. We would know via their previous head coach results. -
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
this is the bit where, despite being in the 'Foster must go' camp (and one fo the founding members, I have to add Wayne Smith's perspective.
Smith in a radio interview I heard prior to the selection basically said you can't judge him on where he was, as people grow and develop. The clear undercurrent was that he brought a lot to the table, and the chiefs was a long time ago.
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
And this is the bit where the sensible decision is to say 'yep you know heaps, but we haven't seen you succeed as a head coach, so go away and sort that and come back next time'
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
this is the bit where, despite being in the 'Foster must go' camp (and one fo the founding members, I have to add Wayne Smith's perspective.
Smith in a radio interview I heard prior to the selection basically said you can't judge him on where he was, as people grow and develop. The clear undercurrent was that he brought a lot to the table, and the chiefs was a long time ago.
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
And this is the bit where the sensible decision is to say 'yep you know heaps, but we haven't seen you succeed as a head coach, so go away and sort that and come back next time'
Yes I think Razor was judged under harsher criteria than Foster, because he had a better record but may not have known the panel as well.
But also, we are talking about Foster yet there is a strong Canes influence in the selection of key positions (Ardie as captain, TJP on for so long, BB? Jordie at FB and wing) and while some or all those decisions have merit (not JB at wing and I do think they over-rely on TJP's experience), I wonder if Plumtree has a strong say (but he seems to have a solid career as assistant coach overseas?)
So perhaps the Foster team had more cachet than the Robertson team, I don't know. But I don't see the head coach record, and the Foster era seems more of the same as the Hansen era (perhaps others here see the Foster stamp on the team that he intended to make).
But I do wish we had someone in there with the nous of Wayne Smith. -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
this is the bit where, despite being in the 'Foster must go' camp (and one fo the founding members, I have to add Wayne Smith's perspective.
Smith in a radio interview I heard prior to the selection basically said you can't judge him on where he was, as people grow and develop. The clear undercurrent was that he brought a lot to the table, and the chiefs was a long time ago.
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
And this is the bit where the sensible decision is to say 'yep you know heaps, but we haven't seen you succeed as a head coach, so go away and sort that and come back next time'
Yes I think Razor was judged under harsher criteria than Foster, because he had a better record but may not have known the panel as well.
But also, we are talking about Foster yet there is a strong Canes influence in the selection of key positions (Ardie as captain, TJP on for so long, BB? Jordie at FB and wing) and while some or all those decisions have merit (not JB at wing and I do think they over-rely on TJP's experience), I wonder if Plumtree has a strong say (but he seems to have a solid career as assistant coach overseas?)
So perhaps the Foster team had more cachet than the Robertson team, I don't know. But I don't see the head coach record, and the Foster era seems more of the same as the Hansen era (perhaps others here see the Foster stamp on the team that he intended to make).
But I do wish we had someone in there with the nous of Wayne Smith.You do. He's called Tony Brown. A thinker. Someone who will be innovative. Forged in NZ, but with great experience of foreign cultures and playing styles. He's NZ's future IMO. He has to be involved at some point.
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
this is the bit where, despite being in the 'Foster must go' camp (and one fo the founding members, I have to add Wayne Smith's perspective.
Smith in a radio interview I heard prior to the selection basically said you can't judge him on where he was, as people grow and develop. The clear undercurrent was that he brought a lot to the table, and the chiefs was a long time ago.
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
And this is the bit where the sensible decision is to say 'yep you know heaps, but we haven't seen you succeed as a head coach, so go away and sort that and come back next time'
Yes I think Razor was judged under harsher criteria than Foster, because he had a better record but may not have known the panel as well.
But also, we are talking about Foster yet there is a strong Canes influence in the selection of key positions (Ardie as captain, TJP on for so long, BB? Jordie at FB and wing) and while some or all those decisions have merit (not JB at wing and I do think they over-rely on TJP's experience), I wonder if Plumtree has a strong say (but he seems to have a solid career as assistant coach overseas?)
So perhaps the Foster team had more cachet than the Robertson team, I don't know. But I don't see the head coach record, and the Foster era seems more of the same as the Hansen era (perhaps others here see the Foster stamp on the team that he intended to make).
But I do wish we had someone in there with the nous of Wayne Smith.You do. He's called Tony Brown. A thinker. Someone who will be innovative. Forged in NZ, but with great experience of foreign cultures and playing styles. He's NZ's future IMO. He has to be involved at some point.
His involvement was dependent on JJ being there
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@stodders said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
this is the bit where, despite being in the 'Foster must go' camp (and one fo the founding members, I have to add Wayne Smith's perspective.
Smith in a radio interview I heard prior to the selection basically said you can't judge him on where he was, as people grow and develop. The clear undercurrent was that he brought a lot to the table, and the chiefs was a long time ago.
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
And this is the bit where the sensible decision is to say 'yep you know heaps, but we haven't seen you succeed as a head coach, so go away and sort that and come back next time'
Yes I think Razor was judged under harsher criteria than Foster, because he had a better record but may not have known the panel as well.
But also, we are talking about Foster yet there is a strong Canes influence in the selection of key positions (Ardie as captain, TJP on for so long, BB? Jordie at FB and wing) and while some or all those decisions have merit (not JB at wing and I do think they over-rely on TJP's experience), I wonder if Plumtree has a strong say (but he seems to have a solid career as assistant coach overseas?)
So perhaps the Foster team had more cachet than the Robertson team, I don't know. But I don't see the head coach record, and the Foster era seems more of the same as the Hansen era (perhaps others here see the Foster stamp on the team that he intended to make).
But I do wish we had someone in there with the nous of Wayne Smith.You do. He's called Tony Brown. A thinker. Someone who will be innovative. Forged in NZ, but with great experience of foreign cultures and playing styles. He's NZ's future IMO. He has to be involved at some point.
yes. His teams are also often good to watch.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
this is the bit where, despite being in the 'Foster must go' camp (and one fo the founding members, I have to add Wayne Smith's perspective.
Smith in a radio interview I heard prior to the selection basically said you can't judge him on where he was, as people grow and develop. The clear undercurrent was that he brought a lot to the table, and the chiefs was a long time ago.
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
And this is the bit where the sensible decision is to say 'yep you know heaps, but we haven't seen you succeed as a head coach, so go away and sort that and come back next time'
Yes I think Razor was judged under harsher criteria than Foster, because he had a better record but may not have known the panel as well.
But also, we are talking about Foster yet there is a strong Canes influence in the selection of key positions (Ardie as captain, TJP on for so long, BB? Jordie at FB and wing) and while some or all those decisions have merit (not JB at wing and I do think they over-rely on TJP's experience), I wonder if Plumtree has a strong say (but he seems to have a solid career as assistant coach overseas?)
So perhaps the Foster team had more cachet than the Robertson team, I don't know. But I don't see the head coach record, and the Foster era seems more of the same as the Hansen era (perhaps others here see the Foster stamp on the team that he intended to make).
But I do wish we had someone in there with the nous of Wayne Smith.You do. He's called Tony Brown. A thinker. Someone who will be innovative. Forged in NZ, but with great experience of foreign cultures and playing styles. He's NZ's future IMO. He has to be involved at some point.
His involvement was dependent on JJ being there
In 2019, yes. Might be a different story in 2023.
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
this is the bit where, despite being in the 'Foster must go' camp (and one fo the founding members, I have to add Wayne Smith's perspective.
Smith in a radio interview I heard prior to the selection basically said you can't judge him on where he was, as people grow and develop. The clear undercurrent was that he brought a lot to the table, and the chiefs was a long time ago.
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
And this is the bit where the sensible decision is to say 'yep you know heaps, but we haven't seen you succeed as a head coach, so go away and sort that and come back next time'
Yes I think Razor was judged under harsher criteria than Foster, because he had a better record but may not have known the panel as well.
But also, we are talking about Foster yet there is a strong Canes influence in the selection of key positions (Ardie as captain, TJP on for so long, BB? Jordie at FB and wing) and while some or all those decisions have merit (not JB at wing and I do think they over-rely on TJP's experience), I wonder if Plumtree has a strong say (but he seems to have a solid career as assistant coach overseas?)
So perhaps the Foster team had more cachet than the Robertson team, I don't know. But I don't see the head coach record, and the Foster era seems more of the same as the Hansen era (perhaps others here see the Foster stamp on the team that he intended to make).
But I do wish we had someone in there with the nous of Wayne Smith.You do. He's called Tony Brown. A thinker. Someone who will be innovative. Forged in NZ, but with great experience of foreign cultures and playing styles. He's NZ's future IMO. He has to be involved at some point.
His involvement was dependent on JJ being there
That was a timing thing as well though. He had already given his word to JJ that he would support him with Japan and wasn't prepared to go back on his word.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2021:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@stodders said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
I just can't really see how Foster had a superior resume.
this is the bit where, despite being in the 'Foster must go' camp (and one fo the founding members, I have to add Wayne Smith's perspective.
Smith in a radio interview I heard prior to the selection basically said you can't judge him on where he was, as people grow and develop. The clear undercurrent was that he brought a lot to the table, and the chiefs was a long time ago.
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
And this is the bit where the sensible decision is to say 'yep you know heaps, but we haven't seen you succeed as a head coach, so go away and sort that and come back next time'
Yes I think Razor was judged under harsher criteria than Foster, because he had a better record but may not have known the panel as well.
But also, we are talking about Foster yet there is a strong Canes influence in the selection of key positions (Ardie as captain, TJP on for so long, BB? Jordie at FB and wing) and while some or all those decisions have merit (not JB at wing and I do think they over-rely on TJP's experience), I wonder if Plumtree has a strong say (but he seems to have a solid career as assistant coach overseas?)
So perhaps the Foster team had more cachet than the Robertson team, I don't know. But I don't see the head coach record, and the Foster era seems more of the same as the Hansen era (perhaps others here see the Foster stamp on the team that he intended to make).
But I do wish we had someone in there with the nous of Wayne Smith.You do. He's called Tony Brown. A thinker. Someone who will be innovative. Forged in NZ, but with great experience of foreign cultures and playing styles. He's NZ's future IMO. He has to be involved at some point.
His involvement was dependent on JJ being there
That was a timing thing as well though. He had already given his word to JJ that he would support him with Japan and wasn't prepared to go back on his word.
A Razor JJ Tony Brown trio sounds exciting on paper
