Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour
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A question for someone who can analyse Rugby much better than me.
Why is there a such difference in the quality of performances by Richie Mo'unga at Super level for the Crusaders and at international level for the All Blacks?
For the Crusaders, he is one of the great Super Rugby players of all time and plays with a huge about of fluency, verve, flair and imagination. For the ABs (under both Hansen and Foster), he does okay and does some things well but he's not such a consistent game-breaker and look like he is playing with the handbrake on. Is it a systems thing, a confidence thing or about the two team environments?
I'd be very interested to hear any informed opinions.
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@sparky Not informed at all but I have an opinion.
One game against Italy has taken away his early Championship form? What? .... Do you have a seriously short-term memory? He was excellent before his break.
I would choose BB against Ireland because the form pendulum has swayed towards Beauden but I really think there is no reason for this question to be asked. -
@old-samurai-jack said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@sparky Not informed at all but I have an opinion.
One game against Italy has taken away his early Championship form? What? .... Do you have a seriously short-term memory? He was excellent before his break.
I would choose BB against Ireland because the form pendulum has swayed towards Beauden but I really think there is no reason for this question to be asked.Richie is a tidy kicker.
I do wonder if the Crusaders are better at linking 10 and 12. Seems to me the AB 10 is often playing very independently of the supporting backline. -
@old-samurai-jack Richie Mo'unga is a very solid international player but he doesn't consistently dominate in the same way he does at Super Level. The Fern has awarded him three MoM points this year despite his remarkable talent.
I'd just be interested if anyone can point out why. I don't think it is a ridiculous question to ask.
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@sparky because at the absolute elite level your 10 is rarely a game breaker, he's a game manager. The best can also break a game open.
I thought @Dan54 damned him in praise earlier where he said Richie was at his best wrapping the 12 and attacking out wide. That's not a test match 10.
A good 10 at this level keeps the ball in front of his forwards, steers the team around the Park, dictates the pace, puts guys in to space. A great one does this while also being an attacking threat in his own right.
Richie M is, like BB, a great attacking player who doesn't have the ability to command a game.
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@nostrildamus said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
for @bones only.
Tell me Ennor's neck is proportional side-on to front-on?
Caveat: very academic topic now considering his unique catching skills.
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Few points from rewatch of last 35.
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Early in second Italian 16 awarded several penalties when his feet were two feet behind hips. Physically impossible from there to support own body weight!
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Cleanouts/ball protection a lot better once Ofa arrived. After a while De Groot also seemed to get the hang of it.
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Backline was much better with Havili and Tuapea, both of whom were quick to clean.
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Frizell added good physicality. Finishing loose trio much more effective than starting.
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All of which led to repeat 26-0 final quarter. Effect of tiring would have played a big part.
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@pakman said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
Few points from rewatch of last 35.
- Early in second Italian 16 awarded several penalties when his feet were two feet behind hips. Physically impossible from there to support own body weight!
You’re only saying that because it’s true.
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@nostrildamus Ireland - WC 2019 QF
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@nostrildamus said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@act-crusader said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
the bench was all good? I can't remember anyone standing out for the wrong reasons?
We were probably lucky Italy had one gun winger only and only tried running the ball near the end of the game..
You make it sound like the AB coaches don’t do any scouting on their opposition. It would’ve very evident from 6N performances that what they did yesterday was par for course in terms of lack of attack.
i think that was indeed what Shag said, they'd concentrate on their own team not the opposition. And Foster is a mini Shag isn't he?
If they did have great scouting of the opposition that didn't seem to help them against the Boks.You really think what these international coaches say publicly is what actually happens? Public statements are just part of the PR game. Given the size of the support staff in these teams, of course they are scouting.
I wouldn’t be putting a loss down to poor tactics or even scouting. I thought the tactics against the Boks were okay, we just didn’t execute in key moments and we gave away a dumb penalty at the end.
Heh. I knew at the time of my post I should add "In my naive sober state" but now now I am four sheets to the wind and completely oblivious to any subtlety of criticism I am going to be very frank and say
The AB tactical awareness, and manipulation of other teams has been crap since the 2015 RWC.
There, I said it.Where has this great tactical leveraging happened in recent years? What strategic weaknesses did they (AB coaches) rip open? Against whom?
Perhaps the George Bridge special of running straight into the opposition and flopping at their feet like a lovesick corgi? The kicks straight to the opposition for easy catches, not to wide open space or bombs to the aerially challenged? The loose forward charging of frightened 10s?
Where? When?Sorry, was replying to this. WC 2019 QF against Ireland. ABs played v well in that match and negated all of Ireland's strengths with the sheer speed of their play. Aaron Smith was untouchable. Will be interesting to see who the ABs pick at 9 for this weekend.
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@stodders said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus Ireland - WC 2019 QF
Yes I give you that game. But there aren't many more like that. And I point you to the next game, against England.
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@nostrildamus but I think a lot of energy was put into that Ireland game because they (along with SA) had given the ABs the most trouble in that 4 year WC cycle.
As England showed after beating NZ, it is difficult to climb another peak when you feel you've conquered Everest the week before.
The key to winning WCs is to not scale the peaks in the QFs. ABs were too good (and Ireland poor) in QFs. A scratchy, hard fought win would have been better preparation. A bit like a scratchy hard fought win against limited, but game opposition like Italy 😉
Ireland's team for Japan was supposedly (from Irish fans and writers) a bit of a conservative selection. They didn't get much opposition from Japan, who were v poor. What does it say when their conservative side were seemingly striking from anywhere and everywhere? Their defence can be brutal, but Japan rarely threatened for 80 mins. I've seen ABs struggle in their next game after looking other worldly in their previous game. Expectations are high now for Ireland to repeat that performance (not result) against NZ.
Ireland were up for that game because of what happened in last WC against Japan. It was also Sexton's 100th test. Now they have to scale another emotional high against NZ a week later. That's a big job for the coaching staff to get the focus right.
NZ have work ons after Italy. They enter the game with things to prove, not plaudits in their ears. Ireland go into the game in fine fettle, but with a sense of trepidation because they know what is coming. I reckon it'll be a cracker.
This is NZ's biggest game of the NH tour. Ireland are on an upward curve after finishing 6 Nations strongly and putting away Japan with ease. This is where the ABs will be put to the test, not in Paris.
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@stodders said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus but I think a lot of energy was put into that Ireland game because they (along with SA) had given the ABs the most trouble in that 4 year WC cycle.
As England showed after beating NZ, it is difficult to climb another peak when you feel you've conquered Everest the week before.
The key to winning WCs is to not scale the peaks in the QFs. ABs were too good (and Ireland poor) in QFs. A scratchy, hard fought win would have been better preparation. A bit like a scratchy hard fought win against limited, but game opposition like Italy 😉
Ireland's team for Japan was supposedly (from Irish fans and writers) a bit of a conservative selection. They didn't get much opposition from Japan, who were v poor. What does it say when their conservative side were seemingly striking from anywhere and everywhere? Their defence can be brutal, but Japan rarely threatened for 80 mins. I've seen ABs struggle in their next game after looking other worldly in their previous game. Expectations are high now for Ireland to repeat that performance (not result) against NZ.
Ireland were up for that game because of what happened in last WC against Japan. It was also Sexton's 100th test. Now they have to scale another emotional high against NZ a week later. That's a big job for the coaching staff to get the focus right.
NZ have work ons after Italy. They enter the game with things to prove, not plaudits in their ears. Ireland go into the game in fine fettle, but with a sense of trepidation because they know what is coming. I reckon it'll be a cracker.
This is NZ's biggest game of the NH tour. Ireland are on an upward curve after finishing 6 Nations strongly and putting away Japan with ease. This is where the ABs will be put to the test, not in Paris.
Don’t agree with your last statement. The coaches will have their work cut out getting the mental side right for France.
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@billy-tell said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus but I think a lot of energy was put into that Ireland game because they (along with SA) had given the ABs the most trouble in that 4 year WC cycle.
As England showed after beating NZ, it is difficult to climb another peak when you feel you've conquered Everest the week before.
The key to winning WCs is to not scale the peaks in the QFs. ABs were too good (and Ireland poor) in QFs. A scratchy, hard fought win would have been better preparation. A bit like a scratchy hard fought win against limited, but game opposition like Italy 😉
Ireland's team for Japan was supposedly (from Irish fans and writers) a bit of a conservative selection. They didn't get much opposition from Japan, who were v poor. What does it say when their conservative side were seemingly striking from anywhere and everywhere? Their defence can be brutal, but Japan rarely threatened for 80 mins. I've seen ABs struggle in their next game after looking other worldly in their previous game. Expectations are high now for Ireland to repeat that performance (not result) against NZ.
Ireland were up for that game because of what happened in last WC against Japan. It was also Sexton's 100th test. Now they have to scale another emotional high against NZ a week later. That's a big job for the coaching staff to get the focus right.
NZ have work ons after Italy. They enter the game with things to prove, not plaudits in their ears. Ireland go into the game in fine fettle, but with a sense of trepidation because they know what is coming. I reckon it'll be a cracker.
This is NZ's biggest game of the NH tour. Ireland are on an upward curve after finishing 6 Nations strongly and putting away Japan with ease. This is where the ABs will be put to the test, not in Paris.
Don’t agree with your last statement. The coaches will have their work cut out getting the mental side right for France.
But the rest is fine? 😁 France will be a different challenge. One foot on the plane heading home. I think Ireland are a better team than France right now. They know they can beat NZ which makes them a dangerous proposition, especially at home. ABs will have to really earn the win this weekend.
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@stodders said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus but I think a lot of energy was put into that Ireland game because they (along with SA) had given the ABs the most trouble in that 4 year WC cycle.
As England showed after beating NZ, it is difficult to climb another peak when you feel you've conquered Everest the week before.
The key to winning WCs is to not scale the peaks in the QFs. ABs were too good (and Ireland poor) in QFs. A scratchy, hard fought win would have been better preparation. A bit like a scratchy hard fought win against limited, but game opposition like Italy 😉
Ireland's team for Japan was supposedly (from Irish fans and writers) a bit of a conservative selection. They didn't get much opposition from Japan, who were v poor. What does it say when their conservative side were seemingly striking from anywhere and everywhere? Their defence can be brutal, but Japan rarely threatened for 80 mins. I've seen ABs struggle in their next game after looking other worldly in their previous game. Expectations are high now for Ireland to repeat that performance (not result) against NZ.
Ireland were up for that game because of what happened in last WC against Japan. It was also Sexton's 100th test. Now they have to scale another emotional high against NZ a week later. That's a big job for the coaching staff to get the focus right.
NZ have work ons after Italy. They enter the game with things to prove, not plaudits in their ears. Ireland go into the game in fine fettle, but with a sense of trepidation because they know what is coming. I reckon it'll be a cracker.
This is NZ's biggest game of the NH tour. Ireland are on an upward curve after finishing 6 Nations strongly and putting away Japan with ease. This is where the ABs will be put to the test, not in Paris.
Thank you much there to agree with. But do (and did) Ireland have the equivalent depth as the ABs?
From memory when we played them in that game they already and on the field had key injuries? Have they improved their depth? -
@nostrildamus said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus but I think a lot of energy was put into that Ireland game because they (along with SA) had given the ABs the most trouble in that 4 year WC cycle.
As England showed after beating NZ, it is difficult to climb another peak when you feel you've conquered Everest the week before.
The key to winning WCs is to not scale the peaks in the QFs. ABs were too good (and Ireland poor) in QFs. A scratchy, hard fought win would have been better preparation. A bit like a scratchy hard fought win against limited, but game opposition like Italy 😉
Ireland's team for Japan was supposedly (from Irish fans and writers) a bit of a conservative selection. They didn't get much opposition from Japan, who were v poor. What does it say when their conservative side were seemingly striking from anywhere and everywhere? Their defence can be brutal, but Japan rarely threatened for 80 mins. I've seen ABs struggle in their next game after looking other worldly in their previous game. Expectations are high now for Ireland to repeat that performance (not result) against NZ.
Ireland were up for that game because of what happened in last WC against Japan. It was also Sexton's 100th test. Now they have to scale another emotional high against NZ a week later. That's a big job for the coaching staff to get the focus right.
NZ have work ons after Italy. They enter the game with things to prove, not plaudits in their ears. Ireland go into the game in fine fettle, but with a sense of trepidation because they know what is coming. I reckon it'll be a cracker.
This is NZ's biggest game of the NH tour. Ireland are on an upward curve after finishing 6 Nations strongly and putting away Japan with ease. This is where the ABs will be put to the test, not in Paris.
Thank you much there to agree with. But do (and did) Ireland have the equivalent depth as the ABs?
From memory when we played them in that game they already and on the field had key injuries? Have they improved their depth?Front row they have depth. Cian Healy wasn't playing last week (Furlong and Porter were the starting props). Hooker they have options. At lock, they can afford to leave a Lion in Henderson out. Back row they are spoiled for choice. Peter O'Mahoney, who was MoM against ABs when Ireland beat ABs in 2018, isn't first choice.
At 9 they have Gibson-Park who offers more of a passing game than Murray, but Murray has a grade A box kicking game. Nice blend. At 10 they struggle behind Sexton to have the same quality, but they have good enough back ups.
At 12 they have Henshaw or Aki who are both good foils for Ringrose at 13. They have plenty of v good outside backs to choose from who run fast, hard and have skills. The addition of Lowe has provided them with an extra something to unlock defences.
So yeah, I'd say depth wise they are doing fine. One of the strongest squads in the 6N now.
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@stodders said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in Italy vs All Blacks 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus but I think a lot of energy was put into that Ireland game because they (along with SA) had given the ABs the most trouble in that 4 year WC cycle.
As England showed after beating NZ, it is difficult to climb another peak when you feel you've conquered Everest the week before.
The key to winning WCs is to not scale the peaks in the QFs. ABs were too good (and Ireland poor) in QFs. A scratchy, hard fought win would have been better preparation. A bit like a scratchy hard fought win against limited, but game opposition like Italy 😉
Ireland's team for Japan was supposedly (from Irish fans and writers) a bit of a conservative selection. They didn't get much opposition from Japan, who were v poor. What does it say when their conservative side were seemingly striking from anywhere and everywhere? Their defence can be brutal, but Japan rarely threatened for 80 mins. I've seen ABs struggle in their next game after looking other worldly in their previous game. Expectations are high now for Ireland to repeat that performance (not result) against NZ.
Ireland were up for that game because of what happened in last WC against Japan. It was also Sexton's 100th test. Now they have to scale another emotional high against NZ a week later. That's a big job for the coaching staff to get the focus right.
NZ have work ons after Italy. They enter the game with things to prove, not plaudits in their ears. Ireland go into the game in fine fettle, but with a sense of trepidation because they know what is coming. I reckon it'll be a cracker.
This is NZ's biggest game of the NH tour. Ireland are on an upward curve after finishing 6 Nations strongly and putting away Japan with ease. This is where the ABs will be put to the test, not in Paris.
Thank you much there to agree with. But do (and did) Ireland have the equivalent depth as the ABs?
From memory when we played them in that game they already and on the field had key injuries? Have they improved their depth?Front row they have depth. Cian Healy wasn't playing last week (Furlong and Porter were the starting props). Hooker they have options. At lock, they can afford to leave a Lion in Henderson out. Back row they are spoiled for choice. Peter O'Mahoney, who was MoM against ABs when Ireland beat ABs in 2018, isn't first choice.
At 9 they have Gibson-Park who offers more of a passing game than Murray, but Murray has a grade A box kicking game. Nice blend. At 10 they struggle behind Sexton to have the same quality, but they have good enough back ups.
At 12 they have Henshaw or Aki who are both good foils for Ringrose at 13. They have plenty of v good outside backs to choose from who run fast, hard and have skills. The addition of Lowe has provided them with an extra something to unlock defences.
So yeah, I'd say depth wise they are doing fine. One of the strongest squads in the 6N now.
That is impressive if they can leave Henderson out, have not followed his recent form but he impressed me. I recognized most of the names so that surprises me as well!
