AB all time pro-era XXIII
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@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
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@booboo said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@gt12 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@Chester-Draws said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Sam Whitelock is a great player. But no way is he an all-time great. He never dominates like Retallick. When he doesn't play you don't see that much difference -- unlike most of the players listed. When Rettalick is absent a team really notices.
I would pick Ian Jones a million times over him. Lineout master and superb athlete.
Actually, I'd pick Brad Thorn over him too. Not flashy, but a much more physical presence.
There's a few locks who played for money that I suppose aren't pro era like Gary Whetton that are much better too. Andy Haden for you oldies.
Please see here (timestamp 1:25.17):
I upvoted because I assume you refer to the lineout steal. I haven't watched the video
Nonu setting up BB at 1:37:39 was a thing of absolute beauty and why he's way ahead of anyone else at 12 in the pro era.
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@booboo DC was the best AB 10 of the pro-era by a country mile but the bench First Five is an interesting call.
I've always thought Mehrts Vs Spencer was a horses for courses debate. Not much between them in ability and impact but different styles and temperament. Both bloody good players, but neither great defenders.
Agree, about BB being a better option than either off the bench. He was a superb finisher in 2015.
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@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
At his best, SBW was outstanding. Look at his performances against Scotland in 2010, the Ireland test in Hamilton in 2012 and the wonderful two offloads before Nonu's try in 2015 final.
The problem was Hansen kept picking him when he was long, long past his best. He shouldn't really have been an AB after 2016.
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@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
At his best, SBW was outstanding. Look at his performances against Scotland in 2010, the Ireland test in Hamilton in 2012 and the wonderful two offloads before Nonu's try in 2015 final.
The problem was Hansen kept picking him when he was long, long past his best. He should really have been an AB after 2016.
I was a big SBW fan in league. He could have been great in that game but a combination of injury and leaving to play rugby put an end to that. He was an ok AB, maybe above average. He was not a natural rugby player and in my opinion a way away from being considered a great. He always seemed to be a league player playing union.
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@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
At his best, SBW was outstanding. Look at his performances against Scotland in 2010, the Ireland test in Hamilton in 2012 and the wonderful two offloads before Nonu's try in 2015 final.
The problem was Hansen kept picking him when he was long, long past his best. He should really have been an AB after 2016.
Yeah, nah.
I think our best midfield in 2019 would have been SBDubs and JG. But it wasn't picked.
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@Crazy-Horse said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
At his best, SBW was outstanding. Look at his performances against Scotland in 2010, the Ireland test in Hamilton in 2012 and the wonderful two offloads before Nonu's try in 2015 final.
The problem was Hansen kept picking him when he was long, long past his best. He should really have been an AB after 2016.
I was a big SBW fan in league. He could have been great in that game but a combination of injury and leaving to play rugby put an end to that. He was an ok AB, maybe above average. He was not a natural rugby player and in my opinion a way away from being considered a great. He always seemed to be a league player playing union.
But this is also true
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@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
At his best, SBW was outstanding. Look at his performances against Scotland in 2010, the Ireland test in Hamilton in 2012 and the wonderful two offloads before Nonu's try in 2015 final.
The problem was Hansen kept picking him when he was long, long past his best. He should really have been an AB after 2016.
Not really much of a yardstick.
I can’t recall any AB continually being picked despite multiple crapola performances but Jordie Barrett is certainly giving this a hoon to be fair.
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@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
You over egged that like I over egged my failed pavlova the other day.
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@Nepia said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
You over egged that like I over egged my failed pavlova the other day.
He was a fine midfielder who didn’t fuck off to box or play league every five minutes.
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@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@Nepia said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
You over egged that like I over egged my failed pavlova the other day.
He was a fine midfielder who didn’t fuck off to box or play league every five minutes.
He just fucked off to UK club rugby instead.
Good old SBW, fucked off to league, fucked off to box, managed to be an AB for more years and more tests than Mauger and won two RWCs. Dude has the midas touch. :face_with_stuck-out_tongue_winking_eye:
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@Nepia said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@Nepia said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
You over egged that like I over egged my failed pavlova the other day.
He was a fine midfielder who didn’t fuck off to box or play league every five minutes.
He just fucked off to UK club rugby instead.
Good old SBW, fucked off to league, fucked off to box, managed to be an AB for more years and more tests than Mauger and won two RWCs. Dude has the midas touch. :face_with_stuck-out_tongue_winking_eye:
Off the bench both times
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@booboo said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@gt12 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@Chester-Draws said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Sam Whitelock is a great player. But no way is he an all-time great. He never dominates like Retallick. When he doesn't play you don't see that much difference -- unlike most of the players listed. When Rettalick is absent a team really notices.
I would pick Ian Jones a million times over him. Lineout master and superb athlete.
Actually, I'd pick Brad Thorn over him too. Not flashy, but a much more physical presence.
There's a few locks who played for money that I suppose aren't pro era like Gary Whetton that are much better too. Andy Haden for you oldies.
Please see here (timestamp 1:25.17):
I upvoted because I assume you refer to the lineout steal. I haven't watched the video
If you were going to pick something that Sam Whitelock has over Ian Jones, the last thing it would be would be lineouts! That's the one clear area that Ian Jones stands well above the recent players.
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@Nepia said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@Nepia said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@MN5 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@sparky said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Could have easily picked Carl Hayman, M.Jones, Z.Brooke, A.Mehrtens, B.Barrett, Umaga, SBW and F.Bunce. Fantastic players all. We really have been had some amazing players in the last 25 years.
If Nonu, Bunce, Smith, Umaga, Mauger and Little all broke their legs simultaneously he might get a mention.
You over egged that like I over egged my failed pavlova the other day.
He was a fine midfielder who didn’t fuck off to box or play league every five minutes.
He just fucked off to UK club rugby instead.
Good old SBW, fucked off to league, fucked off to box, managed to be an AB for more years and more tests than Mauger and won two RWCs. Dude has the midas touch. :face_with_stuck-out_tongue_winking_eye:
And won a Lions series.....oh wait!
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@Chester-Draws said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@booboo said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@gt12 said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
@Chester-Draws said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Sam Whitelock is a great player. But no way is he an all-time great. He never dominates like Retallick. When he doesn't play you don't see that much difference -- unlike most of the players listed. When Rettalick is absent a team really notices.
I would pick Ian Jones a million times over him. Lineout master and superb athlete.
Actually, I'd pick Brad Thorn over him too. Not flashy, but a much more physical presence.
There's a few locks who played for money that I suppose aren't pro era like Gary Whetton that are much better too. Andy Haden for you oldies.
Please see here (timestamp 1:25.17):
I upvoted because I assume you refer to the lineout steal. I haven't watched the video
If you were going to pick something that Sam Whitelock has over Ian Jones, the last thing it would be would be lineouts! That's the one clear area that Ian Jones stands well above the recent players.
Yeah, but that one lineout won us a World Cup, so am in love with the moment.
I'm not arguing per se (although I would pick Whitelock over Jones) but Jones' absolute domination of the lineout in the 95 final (pre lifting) didn't quite get us there.
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The problem with SBW was how flaky he was. You just never knew when he'd have a brain-fart which resulted in a missed try, a yellow card or a red one.
Don't doubt his ability to off-load, but apart from that he was a pretty average player.
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@Victor-Meldrew
Arguably cost us the Lions series.Though he had more than just his offload, he was like another loose forward in carrying and tackling (when he got it right).
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@Tim said in AB all time pro-era XXIII:
Maybe one the more interesting aspects of picking a team like this is where the pro-era cut-off is, and what players make it. In my opinion, Zinzan Brooke and Sean Fitzpatrick were good enough and had sufficiently significant careers in 1996 and 97 to justify their inclusion.
I guess it depends on quite how you're assessing people - if it is one absolute peak performance, then maybe these guys qualify from that South African series win - I can't remember.
But, if it's more related to their body of work, I wouldn't pick any of the guys who've been suggested who were in the tail ends of their careers - Fitzy, Brooke (these two have been Englishmen for most of the pro era -
), Bunce, Brown or Jones.Fitzy was a cripple on the 1997 EOYT, so he only played 18 months of pro rugby. I recall Zinny was heavily criticized for taking a farewell tour on the same trip - can't remember whether that was reflected in his play or just because he'd already signed offshore. Brown and Jones' pro careers include the dire 1998 performances. And Hart was prepared to dump Bunce on the flimsiness of being late back from an overseas trip.
Mealamu or Coles for Fitzy
Read for Brooke (Reado might win that one looking at career on career)
Hayman or Franks over Brown
Whitelock over Jones
Conrad over Bunce -
