The Cane vs Savea Debate
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The guy with everything you list last existed with Michael Jones, even our GOAT AB didn't have all those abilities (but he worked hard on overcoming the stuff he wasn't so great at).
I don't think Ardie's brilliant attacking play added with all the other stuff not at the same level is a better package than Cane with his dominant defence and all the other stuff not at the same level.
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@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The guy with everything you list last existed with Michael Jones, even our GOAT AB didn't have all those abilities (but he worked hard on overcoming the stuff he wasn't so great at).
I don't think Ardie's brilliant attacking play added with all the other stuff not at the same level is a better package than Cane with his dominant defence and all the other stuff not at the same level.
I always admired and really noticed how MJ ran with the ball not really his work over the ball.
Whereas McCaw it was his work over the ball that stood out to me.
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@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Nepia said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
So all the support for Cane is based on how we can't be without his dominant defence. Is this first and foremost how we select our openside flankers now? Not their ability to win turnovers, their link play, and hell, their ability to simply catch a rugby ball?
The guy with everything you list last existed with Michael Jones, even our GOAT AB didn't have all those abilities (but he worked hard on overcoming the stuff he wasn't so great at).
I don't think Ardie's brilliant attacking play added with all the other stuff not at the same level is a better package than Cane with his dominant defence and all the other stuff not at the same level.
I always admired and really noticed how MJ ran with the ball not really his work over the ball.
Whereas McCaw it was his work over the ball that stood out to me.
He was really good over the ball when playing as 6.
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I think the “best” 7 for the ABs between Cane and Ardie depends entirely on who is in the 6 and 8 jersey.
If you have two guys who can carry and tackle hard then Cane becomes less important and Ardie’s mobility is a good thing to have.
But if you have guys who are more mobile but less physical then Cane’s defence becomes more important and Ardie is less appealing.Still think Cane at 7 and Ardie at 8 could work if they have someone smashing people Kaino style at 6. Grave of Frizzell could be that sort of 6.
Hopefully Sotutu goes so well at 8 that this is only a backup option though. -
@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Also shark i get your point, but you are massively underselling cane to make it.
He's still very good on the ground, makes really fucking great reads on defence, and hits like a truck. That definitely makes a more than handy test loose forward.
Yep, so predominantly defense. Which as you say we hopefully won't need as much.
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@shark McCaw had a period where he has hands like feet, but he sorted that.
I still dont know why they dont play Cane at 6 given his defence is Kaino-like, and Ardie to play 7...instead, we played them the other way round.
I realise number doesnt always mean much, but I think it'd be easier to have Cane playing more as a 6, which seems closer to his natural game as opposed to putting Ardie there, where I think that is further away from his natural game.
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@taniwharugby said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark McCaw had a period where he has hands like feet, but he sorted that.
I still dont know why they dont play Cane at 6 given his defence is Kaino-like, and Ardie to play 7...instead, we played them the other way round.
I realise number doesnt always mean much, but I think it'd be easier to have Cane playing more as a 6, which seems closer to his natural game as opposed to putting Ardie there, where I think that is further away from his natural game.
It'd be like having Rueben Thorne with more dynamic hits......or alternatively Jerry Collins with less dynamic hair.
I think it could work.
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@sparky said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Cane's no nonsense attitude, exceptional workrate and high ratio of dominant tackles make him the first name on the AB team sheet IMHO.
Fozzie has joined the conversation....
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@ACT-Crusader Ha!
If only Shag had listened to Fozzie before that game in Yokohama.....
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For the record I think Cane is a very, very good openside flanker. Probably world class. But so is Savea, and I much prefer what Savea brings to the table in terms of skillset.
An argument I've always found highly distasteful is that for the selection of a player predominantly for a skill which others in the team should have covered. And this is a huge part of the argument put forward for Cane: his dominant tackling. He shouldn't be there for that, but it's a bonus if it's part of a package which first and foremost includes winning turnovers and - for mine anyway - link play. But people argue for Cane because they believe we need his tackling which supposedly won't come from the 6 and 8. But it's 2020, not 2019. We don't have the new incarnation of Blair Larsen on the other flank and a number 8 who bucked NZ tradition and couldn't be usurped when past his best, due to lack of depth. Any combination of Sotutu, Grace and Frizzel should provide that grunt, and then the door is open for an openside who can provide the icing rather than providing the eggs to the batter.
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@pukunui said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I think the “best” 7 for the ABs between Cane and Ardie depends entirely on who is in the 6 and 8 jersey.
If you have two guys who can carry and tackle hard then Cane becomes less important and Ardie’s mobility is a good thing to have.
But if you have guys who are more mobile but less physical then Cane’s defence becomes more important and Ardie is less appealing.Still think Cane at 7 and Ardie at 8 could work if they have someone smashing people Kaino style at 6. Grave of Frizzell could be that sort of 6.
Hopefully Sotutu goes so well at 8 that this is only a backup option though.Sounds spooky
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
For the record I think Cane is a very, very good openside flanker. Probably world class. But so is Savea, and I much prefer what Savea brings to the table in terms of skillset.
An argument I've always found highly distasteful is that for the selection of a player predominantly for a skill which others in the team should have covered. And this is a huge part of the argument put forward for Cane: his dominant tackling. He shouldn't be there for that, but it's a bonus if it's part of a package which first and foremost includes winning turnovers and - for mine anyway - link play. But people argue for Cane because they believe we need his tackling which supposedly won't come from the 6 and 8. But it's 2020, not 2019. We don't have the new incarnation of Blair Larsen on the other flank and a number 8 who bucked NZ tradition and couldn't be usurped when past his best, due to lack of depth. Any combination of Sotutu, Grace and Frizzel should provide that grunt, and then the door is open for an openside who can provide the icing rather than providing the eggs to the batter.
Dare I mention Ioane?
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@booboo Umm well I've resisted talking about this for four whole days, but on Thursday night I was privy to the actual Canterbury / Crusaders analysis of Akira Ioane and the stats don't paint the picture that he can offer that particular skill. And his character was called into question, to boot.
But for mine, he's impressed me in a handful of games this season. It's a small sample but let's hope the stats aren't the be all and end all, and the single opinion expressed was also just that, and incorrect.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
For the record I think Cane is a very, very good openside flanker. Probably world class. But so is Savea, and I much prefer what Savea brings to the table in terms of skillset.
An argument I've always found highly distasteful is that for the selection of a player predominantly for a skill which others in the team should have covered. And this is a huge part of the argument put forward for Cane: his dominant tackling. He shouldn't be there for that, but it's a bonus if it's part of a package which first and foremost includes winning turnovers and - for mine anyway - link play. But people argue for Cane because they believe we need his tackling which supposedly won't come from the 6 and 8. But it's 2020, not 2019. We don't have the new incarnation of Blair Larsen on the other flank and a number 8 who bucked NZ tradition and couldn't be usurped when past his best, due to lack of depth. Any combination of Sotutu, Grace and Frizzel should provide that grunt, and then the door is open for an openside who can provide the icing rather than providing the eggs to the batter.
@Bones even I don’t go this far back with my anecdotes on past players
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@booboo Umm well I've resisted talking about this for four whole days, but on Thursday night I was privy to the actual Canterbury / Crusaders analysis of Akira Ioane and the stats don't paint the picture that he can offer that particular skill. And his character was called into question, to boot.
But for mine, he's impressed me in a handful of games this season. It's a small sample but let's hope the stats aren't the be all and end all, and the single opinion expressed was also just that, and incorrect.
I hope you don’t think you are going to get away with not spilling the beans a bit more on what you heard.
Surely it’s time for another Akira thread.Regardless, I agree, Akira doesn’t fill that Kaino role of smashing people. He offers something different which is closer to what Savea offers ie. athleticism and ball skills.
Sotutu seems to be a mix of both. -
@pukunui huh that's interesting - what I noticed most about Aoane this year was his brutal defence. Guys would just stop dead running into him and he's very good at holding people up.
Also interesting.... didn't Ardie have waaaay more dominant tackles than Cane this year?
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@Bones said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@pukunui huh that's interesting - what I noticed most about Aoane this year was his brutal defence. Guys would just stop dead running into him and he's very good at holding people up.
Also interesting.... didn't Ardie have waaaay more dominant tackles than Cane this year?
I’d be interested in what they expect from Aoane.
This season he was very dominant in the tackle. Pretty impressive really.
What I noticed from my armchair view though was he still seems a little lost in attack. Frizzel may not appear to hit as hard in the tackle or drive attacker players back like Aoane did, but he seems far more involved and assured in attack. This isn’t just about ball carriers, but attack ruck play, getting back in alignment.
I guess with Cane being captain it really comes down to who complements Cane at 7. At this point I would say it’s Frizzell.
