Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain
-
@canefan said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@antipodean said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
He only did the second highest amount of tackles in the whole team at 95% success rate. What were you watching?
He's no flash Harry, but he does a huge amount of the grunt work
He's no Beaudy on attack, but what he brings to the team is irreplaceable and for most people highly visible. Ardie's a great player and needs to be in the squad, but not at the expense of Sam.
Having both of them means the other flanker has to be tall. Proper tall. Like taller than a Canes lock.
-
@mariner4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
We all know and respect what Cane brings to the ABs, but he's a role player rather than a standout. It's a bit of a difference after the Tana-Richie-Read years (and that's a lot of years).
Tana? Never the clear best in his position world wide (BOD and Mortlock just out of the gate) and they didn’t skip a beat at centre in the following two seasons even with hyper rotation.
Read was super banged up to the point where you could reasonably say he wasn’t one of our top three lopsided.
McCaw kind of spoiled us, but shorter captaincy stints without the expectation of a full RWC cycle will hopefully become the norm.
-
@antipodean people forget that John Plumtree is in the coaching setup, he won't let Ardie sit on the pine and knows full well he's too good to leave out, so it's up to Foster to find an appropriate 6.
-
@rotated said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@mariner4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
We all know and respect what Cane brings to the ABs, but he's a role player rather than a standout. It's a bit of a difference after the Tana-Richie-Read years (and that's a lot of years).
Tana? Never the clear best in his position world wide (BOD and Mortlock just out of the gate) and they didn’t skip a beat at centre in the following two seasons even with hyper rotation.
Read was super banged up to the point where you could reasonably say he wasn’t one of our top three lopsided.
McCaw kind of spoiled us, but shorter captaincy stints without the expectation of a full RWC cycle will hopefully become the norm.
That's a serious underrating of Tana, he was clearly the best centre by some distance in NZ and was definitely competitive with the two you mentioned.
And quite frankly we did struggle at centre until Smith got over his injury issues, it's preposterous to suggest otherwise.
I find it completely bonkers the underrating of Tana as a player in recent years (I have my suspicions it's due to his coaching record) and his captaincy served us well.
-
@Nepia said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@rotated said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@mariner4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
We all know and respect what Cane brings to the ABs, but he's a role player rather than a standout. It's a bit of a difference after the Tana-Richie-Read years (and that's a lot of years).
Tana? Never the clear best in his position world wide (BOD and Mortlock just out of the gate) and they didn’t skip a beat at centre in the following two seasons even with hyper rotation.
Read was super banged up to the point where you could reasonably say he wasn’t one of our top three lopsided.
McCaw kind of spoiled us, but shorter captaincy stints without the expectation of a full RWC cycle will hopefully become the norm.
That's a serious underrating of Tana, he was clearly the best centre by some distance in NZ and was definitely competitive with the two you mentioned.
And quite frankly we did struggle at centre until Smith got over his injury issues, it's preposterous to suggest otherwise.
I find it completely bonkers the underrating of Tana as a player in recent years (I have my suspicions it's due to his coaching record) and his captaincy served us well.
I agree, he wasnt as good as BOD in attack, but he was better than Mortlock, and better than both of them defensively
-
@antipodean said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@canefan said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@antipodean said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
He only did the second highest amount of tackles in the whole team at 95% success rate. What were you watching?
He's no flash Harry, but he does a huge amount of the grunt work
He's no Beaudy on attack, but what he brings to the team is irreplaceable and for most people highly visible. Ardie's a great player and needs to be in the squad, but not at the expense of Sam.
Having both of them means the other flanker has to be tall. Proper tall. Like taller than a Canes lock.
If we had prime Jerome and Read at 6 and 8, I'd pick Ardie over Cane without thinking. But in our current/RWC setup, Cane just has/had to be there.
-
@voodoo well if we got prime Kaino, we gonna still have prime Richie, so Ardie would probably be on the bench over Cane, although he wasn't
-
@taniwharugby said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@voodoo well if we got prime Kaino, we gonna still have prime Richie, so Ardie would probably be on the bench over Cane, although he wasn't
Well Ardie has only come really good last few years, post Richie et al. But come good he has, K Tremain, World Rugby nom, etc. When pushed on this Foster has said we will be playing both as standard
-
@taniwharugby said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@voodoo well if we got prime Kaino, we gonna still have prime Richie, so Ardie would probably be on the bench over Cane, although he wasn't
You get my point though, if we have a hard hitting 6, and 2 genuine lineout options from our 6/8, then I'm totally fine with a true fetcher at 7, a link player that doesn't need to hit the way Cane does.
-
@MN5 said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Frank said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Crucial
I still can't figure out why anyone would want to club a seal to death.
Mental.Not to take away from @Crucial s fantastic Dad joke but he actually shot it.
Maybe he didn't think of using the butt.
-
@voodoo said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@taniwharugby said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@voodoo well if we got prime Kaino, we gonna still have prime Richie, so Ardie would probably be on the bench over Cane, although he wasn't
You get my point though, if we have a hard hitting 6, and 2 genuine lineout options from our 6/8, then I'm totally fine with a true fetcher at 7, a link player that doesn't need to hit the way Cane does.
Great to be focusing the Fern's huge intellect away from CV onto another thing it's no expert on -- RUGBY!
-
@Crucial said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@sparky said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Which test was Andrew Hore ABs captain for?
It was a club game.
This reminds me of a great and I do mean great business opportunity I had but could not raise the support for. You know all those sickening bumper stickers and what have you that say "I 'heart emoji' New York"?
Well I had this idea to expand on that and have stickers saying "I 'club' seals" and "I 'spade' my cat". I couldn't come up with one for diamonds sadly.
-
@nzzp said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@erps said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Saying all this, he is still 20, so I might favour a Tom Robinson yet if he continues to develop.
great post,
just my flogging a dead horse moment, that young forwards often fade as it takes a few years for the body to accommodate the physicality of top level competition. It's just grinding, and without proper offseasons, can be really hard to get used to. Injuries and loss of form are real, and you have to be managed
Well he's had an extended unplanned off season
-
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@antipodean people forget that John Plumtree is in the coaching setup, he won't let Ardie sit on the pine and knows full well he's too good to leave out, so it's up to Foster to find an appropriate 6.
It’s this sort of blatant provincial/franchise bias that I can’t stand.
-
@Nepia said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
That's a serious underrating of Tana, he was clearly the best centre by some distance in NZ and was definitely competitive with the two you mentioned.
And quite frankly we did struggle at centre until Smith got over his injury issues, it's preposterous to suggest otherwise.
I find it completely bonkers the underrating of Tana as a player in recent years (I have my suspicions it's due to his coaching record) and his captaincy served us well.
I'm not sure how that is underrating Tana. He certainly was the best centre in NZ by a decent margin for a long time and you could have a reasonable debate vs BOD or Mortlock. But that is the point. There was never any real (serious) debate about the likes of McCaw, Fitzy or early Read during their captaincies against their opposites. I'm not saying he is Randell/Thorne/Blackadder where they wouldn't have a spot in the team if it were their captaincy.
I find it equally staggering how Umaga gets casually thrown in with Lomu, Wilson and Cullen or Nonu/Smith - entirely different tiers. I'm sure you will disagree but for me he is closer to the Robin Brooke/Marshall/Ian Jones/Walter Little level of AB than any of those.
Cane is probably right where Umaga was when he became skipper. Recently shafted by selection in the RWC semi-final plus being a long tenured automatic selection and consistent contributor who has just happened to been overshadowed by some all time great players around him. Both are probably underrated by the world media.
-
@rotated said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Nepia said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
That's a serious underrating of Tana, he was clearly the best centre by some distance in NZ and was definitely competitive with the two you mentioned.
And quite frankly we did struggle at centre until Smith got over his injury issues, it's preposterous to suggest otherwise.
I find it completely bonkers the underrating of Tana as a player in recent years (I have my suspicions it's due to his coaching record) and his captaincy served us well.
I'm not sure how that is underrating Tana. He certainly was the best centre in NZ by a decent margin for a long time and you could have a reasonable debate vs BOD or Mortlock. But that is the point. There was never any real (serious) debate about the likes of McCaw, Fitzy or early Read during their captaincies against their opposites. I'm not saying he is Randell/Thorne/Blackadder where they wouldn't have a spot in the team if it were their captaincy.
I find it equally staggering how Umaga gets casually thrown in with Lomu, Wilson and Cullen or Nonu/Smith - entirely different tiers. I'm sure you will disagree but for me he is closer to the Robin Brooke/Marshall/Ian Jones/Walter Little level of AB than any of those.
Cane is probably right where Umaga was when he became skipper. Recently shafted by selection in the RWC semi-final plus being a long tenured automatic selection and consistent contributor who has just happened to been overshadowed by some all time great players around him. Both are probably underrated by the world media.
Tana wasn't no 1 world centre for most of his latter career, but there was one season where even Stephen Jones had him in his world team over BOD. Similar in some ways to Conrad, whose star rose and fell in NH. Both in Planet Rugby last 4 (with BOD and Wizard) for best of professional era.
-
I think Tana's worth only really shone through when he became captain.
As you say he was overshadowed by some of the best players ever but was really only a hairs breadth behind them.
79 games in black across 4 positions, played well in all of them, Captained a series win against the Lions, scored 37 tries despite having Lomu, Cullen, Wilson, Rok and Howlett on the field with him.
Don't forget his defensive work either. Laid down the blueprint for every back to follow in an expectation to not only organise and tackle but to play like a flanker once the tackle was made. No coach came up with that. Tana's tenacity did.
It was that second Lions test that was the making of his real legacy though IMO. First PI captain, under the pump from all quarters. Showed everyone, including players to come that an AB jersey is something to stand up for. I don't think it is a stretch to say that his actions and behaviour as an AB captain added a lot to a greater acceptance of the PI population and contribution to NZ. Showed that they aren't just an add on part, but are proud kiwis as well.
I will never forget him leading the first ever showing of Kapa O Pango. Passion like I've never seen from an AB captain before.
He is up there easily on my list of all-time favourite ABs and (without working out a list) must easily be in a top 20 AB greats list.
One of our best.Oh, and he coached Counties to their first ever Shield
-
@ACT-Crusader neither do I and thankfully Plumtree isn’t that sort of bloke, but he is the sort of bloke that will reward effort and form and that will play into Ardie’s hands after his performances last year. That, and the fact we have no real other world-class options in the loosies, other than Cane.
