Possible All Blacks 2020
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@nzzp wasnt that YC on McCaw in 2015, which was pretty much when he was at his peak leadership?
As an aside, I think Cane would be a better bet to lead, just saying I dont think that moment should define his (Whitelock) potential leadership.
That had no effect on the result, in a game we won that had bugger all riding on it and after he had already captained the team to RWC glory and a bazillion test victories.
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@junior we were too far gone for Sam's one to be considered match changing, sure MAYBE we would have gotten closer but that match was gone in the opening quarter.
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior we were too far gone for Sam's one to be considered match changing, sure MAYBE we would have gotten closer but that match was gone in the opening quarter.
hell, no.
Great AB sides pull one out against the odds, adn come back from nearly anywhere. It was a massive, massive brain fart
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@nzzp have to agree to disagree, watching that, while I hoped we were gonna come back as we did so many times before, I just couldnt see us doing it, we were just off our game and the opposition were dictating the way we played, similar to the last game we lost v Ireland.
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@nzzp have to agree to disagree, watching that, while I hoped we were gonna come back as we did so many times before, I just couldnt see us doing it, we were just off our game and the opposition were dictating the way we played, similar to the last game we lost v Ireland.
I'm kicking up about two things you said there.
That we lost in the opening quarter (and couldn't come back)
couldn't disagree more. We get some points, pile up some pressure and 10 points can be nothing. That excludes somethign like the 5 minutes of magic we saw against the saffers ... but to do that we need the goddamn ball.we were off our game
mostly agree - but the actions of SWhitelock were what meant we were off our game! Reversing penalties is the kind of bone headed stupidity that costs games, or rather the opportunity to win a game.So yeah, we were comprehensively outplayed all game, but despite that we were in with a chance to snatch it. That play (and other mistakes) cost us big time.
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@taniwharugby also, got to lvoe the Fern. In the depths of the biggest lockdown in our history, and we find time to squabble about a push from 6 months ago, and what it means for the headspace of some bloke who's currently overseas.
FernTastic
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@nzzp my point about the opening quarter was where we lost the game...which was a few posts back, my point about when Sam did it, I felt that we were never coming back...while I usually think we are a chance to snatch games, but in that game from about halftime, I never really had that feeling that we would steal it.
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@nzzp my point about the opening quarter was where we lost the game...which was a few posts back, my point about when Sam did it, I felt that we were never coming back...while I usually think we are a chance to snatch games, but in that game from about halftime, I never really had that feeling that we would steal it.
it was like watching 80min slow-motion car crash. we lost that game at the selection table.
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@westcoastie said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@nzzp my point about the opening quarter was where we lost the game...which was a few posts back, my point about when Sam did it, I felt that we were never coming back...while I usually think we are a chance to snatch games, but in that game from about halftime, I never really had that feeling that we would steal it.
it was like watching 80min slow-motion car crash. we lost that game at the selection table.
eh, it's the swiss cheese model, but I reckon it started with the RWC being a year too late for us. A year earlier you get good Rieko, good Ben, etc. After that it was:
- selections
- tactics/strategy (not using Scott after selecting him? FFS)
- attitude/dealing with the post-ireland mental slump, lack of physicality
- mental fragility - emphasised by Sam's push
- ...
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@nzzp or a year too early...then we'd likely have had no RWC this year and still be defending champs!
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@taniwharugby and a fit BBBR ...sliding doors
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior we were too far gone for Sam's one to be considered match changing, sure MAYBE we would have gotten closer but that match was gone in the opening quarter.
I'm not saying it was match-changing. I am simply saying that we had a guilt-edged OPPORTUNITY to get ourselves back into the match - one of the very few we actually had in that match - and his stupidity cost us that OPPORTUNITY. One would expect that the Vice Captain would be smart and professional enough to realise what a crucial moment in the match that was for a team that had up to then been struggling to create any scoring opportunities and put their opposition under pressure and, therefore, that it could not possibly be wasted by doing something stupid.
Did it cost us the match? No, in and of itself, it did not.
Did he choose his own stupidity over the OPPORTUNITY for his team to get back into the match and, perhaps, burgle their way into a RWC final? You bet he did.
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@nzzp have to agree to disagree, watching that, while I hoped we were gonna come back as we did so many times before, I just couldnt see us doing it, we were just off our game and the opposition were dictating the way we played, similar to the last game we lost v Ireland.
Right, so that makes Whitelock's brain fade alright then...?
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
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@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
Oh since we've got peak JK, let's throw in peak MJ and peak RM and see if Kaino even gets on the bench?
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@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
Oh since we've got peak JK, let's throw in peak MJ and peak RM and see if Kaino even gets on the bench?
Kaino starts because he's a proper 6!
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@gt12 said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
Actually, peak JK with Cane at 7 and Ardie at 8 wouldn't be that bad at all.
IMHO, we'd have been better last year at the World Cup with that combination that any other we put out.
Kaino, McCaw and Read is a long street ahead of any other combo we've had in recent times - everyone playing in their proper positions.
Going back to something like Jerry, Richie and Rodders is a big step backwards!
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Agree they are the absolute gold standard, especially from 2011-2013, but 2019 Ardie Savea was possibly a better 8 than 2019 Read - he stuck around and tried his best, but he was never as good after the back surgery.
Anyway, Cane captains and starts at 7 in my team. Ardie can go play league if he isn't prepared to play 8 or off the bench.
