All Black Coach - Ian Foster
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@taniwharugby "Player liaison!"
But, you're right! We may need to co-opt Mokey as a selector, to go in with the complete PC hand!
How many steps ahead of Fozzie now?!!
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@booboo said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@chimoaus said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I know Tony Brown said he would stay with JJ, but he would be excellent with Razor.
Pretty amazing arrogance by NZR not to have identified say top 5 potential coaches 2 years ago and started to wine and dine them. Let them know the process, that they are genuine contenders.
Yeah. Gee. Terrible they didn't do that, despite plenty of hints and indications they probably did.
Just going from Rennies quote that OZ have been speaking to him for months whilst the NZR had been pretty quiet.
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@Chris-B said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@KiwiMurph I think there's some rebuilding to be done, but I don't think we'll fall off a cliff.
Retallick, Taylor and Laulala are all just 28, so could easily go another RWC cycle. Ofa is 27. Atu Moli just 24. Even Sam Whitelock is only 30, so will be a couple of years younger than Brad Thorn was when he finished when the next RWC comes around.
We'll probably need to replace Coles and Moody over the next four years - and some young guys will come on.
More immediate problem will be the loose forwards and one thing I don't like about the continuity of Foster is that there might be a continuation of whatever axe there is to grind with Akira Ioane - or, at least, a perception of that axe still being there for Akira - whereas, I'd like to see him fit, motivated and firing for his chance.
I think the selectors want that as well. Motivated also means willing to listen to what they have asked him to work on, whether it is diet, workmate or whatever. If he doesn't appear willing to do that then he gets the reaction that he has so far.
Imagine any other job where you have been identified as having potential for promotion and the boss says 'sharpen up on these things and you are in with a shot' but you continue to do what you have always done without changing much. You still have the same potential and ability but have just shown the boss that you aren't motivated to change to move up.
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@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Cantab79 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I'm shattered that Dave Rennie is going to be coaching the Wallabies. IMO Rennie is the best head coach NZ has produced in the pro-era, and to see him not even progress to interview stage for the vacant AB job is terrible. Apparently the Wallabies have been talking to him for months, which is annoying as we've known Steve Hansen was retiring for ages yet it seems that NZR didn't even start discussions with candidates until after the RWC. What's the point of approaching 26 candidates if all the good ones have already been snapped up?
Whats the point of approaching 26 candidates full stop
??
What's the point of not?
If they didn't there would be accusations of not going to market.
By signalling to a range of coaches that they know meet the pre-requisite if gives these coaches a heads up that the process is starting, they are assessed to have capability that is of interest and that, if they aren't going to apply directly, they could/should start talking around to see if they can fit another candidates team.
I don't get the hang up on the NZR going to market. What does it matter?
Because it's completely and utterly pointless for one.
The should have either advertised the job and let the applications come in. Or preferable approached 4-5 max. Or if they have already made up their mind (and it looks like they have) do what the Aussies did. This seems professional. NZR looks a bit amateurish. or deceitful.
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@MajorRage said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Machpants said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@MajorRage said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Bones said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@MajorRage good coach for a couple of years and then downhill?
Quite possibly.
I think there is a shit ton of politics to deal with in the Wallabies camp as well. Hence a good coach, won't necessarily make a good Wallabies coach.
Lots of people (well, Cantabs) thought Deans was a coaching god, but his record with Oz not that diff to Chiek
Bollocks Deans kept Ozzie at No2, was much more competitive against ABs. The only thing Cheika did better was 15 RWC, but that was with the team someone else had built up and he inspired. He's a grat inspriation coach but shit at actual innovation or coaching at international level. He brought in players that won him the Tahs and Leinster, you can't buy in international players the same way, he never got over that and was unable to really progress individuals or the team.
56 pct vs 52 pct. yeah that’s a much more competitive team ....
Competitive against tier one nations? Deans' Wallabies won more often against Argentina, England, France, Ireland, South Africa and Wales.
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@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Cantab79 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I'm shattered that Dave Rennie is going to be coaching the Wallabies. IMO Rennie is the best head coach NZ has produced in the pro-era, and to see him not even progress to interview stage for the vacant AB job is terrible. Apparently the Wallabies have been talking to him for months, which is annoying as we've known Steve Hansen was retiring for ages yet it seems that NZR didn't even start discussions with candidates until after the RWC. What's the point of approaching 26 candidates if all the good ones have already been snapped up?
Whats the point of approaching 26 candidates full stop
??
What's the point of not?
If they didn't there would be accusations of not going to market.
By signalling to a range of coaches that they know meet the pre-requisite if gives these coaches a heads up that the process is starting, they are assessed to have capability that is of interest and that, if they aren't going to apply directly, they could/should start talking around to see if they can fit another candidates team.
I don't get the hang up on the NZR going to market. What does it matter?
Because it's completely and utterly pointless for one.
The should have either advertised the job and let the applications come in. Or preferable approached 4-5 max. Or if they have already made up their mind (and it looks like they have) do what the Aussies did. This seems professional. NZR looks a bit amateurish. or deceitful.
Amateurish to let any
Wingerdonkey on the Internet submit an application? -
@rotated said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@KiwiMurph said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I can see a pretty average 4 year World Cup cycle (by AB standards) coming up for the ABs.
This decision really should be made with a two year time horizon in mind and a contract to match. While the RWC is a noble goal, given all but one RWCs in the professional era have had a finalist coached by someone who took over mid-cycle it is difficult to see a correlation between forward planning and success. The only exception of course was 2011; where Lievermont was locked out of the French dressing room in the lead up to the final by the players - a potential strategy for the ABs if Foster is appointed on a four year term.
A lot could change in two years. Obviously Rennie and Joseph are spoken for - but perhaps Gatland free of Lions duties is keen, Schmidt has reacclimatized and done something of note at provincial/Super level. Eddie in England will almost go pear shaped. Robertson has two years more experience.
Like South Africa with the talent, provincial set up and knowledge/experience in the country we could be at our absolute lowest ebb two years out from the RWC and put it all together.
Really? I mean really?
Cards on the table: of the two I want Razor.
But the derangement about Fozzie is astonishing.
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@rotated said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
While the RWC is a noble goal, given all but one RWCs in the professional era have had a finalist coached by someone who took over mid-cycle it is difficult to see a correlation between forward planning and success.
I'm starting to think the 4-year cycle is a complete myth. I reckon it's no more than 18 months, and even then the most important part is the last 3.
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I think that last 18 months is key, and during that time the outgoing coaching group made a lot of calls that didn’t work out. As a result, during the final 3 months we were playing catch-up and hoping.
Some strategic decisions were poor too (I.e., supposedly ‘bedding in’ the new system for beating the rush).
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@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Cantab79 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I'm shattered that Dave Rennie is going to be coaching the Wallabies. IMO Rennie is the best head coach NZ has produced in the pro-era, and to see him not even progress to interview stage for the vacant AB job is terrible. Apparently the Wallabies have been talking to him for months, which is annoying as we've known Steve Hansen was retiring for ages yet it seems that NZR didn't even start discussions with candidates until after the RWC. What's the point of approaching 26 candidates if all the good ones have already been snapped up?
Whats the point of approaching 26 candidates full stop
??
What's the point of not?
If they didn't there would be accusations of not going to market.
By signalling to a range of coaches that they know meet the pre-requisite if gives these coaches a heads up that the process is starting, they are assessed to have capability that is of interest and that, if they aren't going to apply directly, they could/should start talking around to see if they can fit another candidates team.
I don't get the hang up on the NZR going to market. What does it matter?
Because it's completely and utterly pointless for one.
The should have either advertised the job and let the applications come in. Or preferable approached 4-5 max. Or if they have already made up their mind (and it looks like they have) do what the Aussies did. This seems professional. NZR looks a bit amateurish. or deceitful.
If they've made up their mind - who is getting the job?
I don't mind in the slightest that they've gone out to 26 people. Some of them aren't genuine contenders for the top job - but, it's opened a dialogue with those guys to gather important market information about whether they might be available for an assistant's position - or potentially a Super job (or anything else that comes up in the immediate future).
Thing is - for everyone that's declaring it a two horse race - what do they know about other candidates who might be keeping cards close to their chest. What about someone like Vern Cotter, for example?
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He coached the Saders for one season nearly twenty years ago, after which he had the Canes for years and hardly made them into a forward powerhouse.
The MABs have hardly been able to develop world class forwards either. His time is gone and if that is the best we can do we really are in the shit.
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@booboo I think the obvious flaws that the ABs have had, the frustrating ones, the lack of directness in the forwards, lack of pragmatism/tactical kicking game, "hail Mary" tactical approaches, selection issues, etc etc were also seen in the Chiefs and it scares most people that this might continue under Foster. Is it coincidence? Both Chiefs and ABs ? How much influence did Foster have?
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@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Cantab79 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I'm shattered that Dave Rennie is going to be coaching the Wallabies. IMO Rennie is the best head coach NZ has produced in the pro-era, and to see him not even progress to interview stage for the vacant AB job is terrible. Apparently the Wallabies have been talking to him for months, which is annoying as we've known Steve Hansen was retiring for ages yet it seems that NZR didn't even start discussions with candidates until after the RWC. What's the point of approaching 26 candidates if all the good ones have already been snapped up?
Whats the point of approaching 26 candidates full stop
??
What's the point of not?
If they didn't there would be accusations of not going to market.
By signalling to a range of coaches that they know meet the pre-requisite if gives these coaches a heads up that the process is starting, they are assessed to have capability that is of interest and that, if they aren't going to apply directly, they could/should start talking around to see if they can fit another candidates team.
I don't get the hang up on the NZR going to market. What does it matter?
Because it's completely and utterly pointless for one.
The should have either advertised the job and let the applications come in. Or preferable approached 4-5 max. Or if they have already made up their mind (and it looks like they have) do what the Aussies did. This seems professional. NZR looks a bit amateurish. or deceitful.
I think you are trying way too hard to support your statement. There is zero evidence or actions that support that they have made up their minds beforehand so you can remove deceitful from the equation.
As for amateurish? How on earth is covering bases amateurish? If they had simply advertised how many of those 26 would have just thought 'I won't bother'. As explained by others, going directly to those that meet initial criteria lets them know directly that they have passed that first hurdle and are welcome. Conversations can start about supporting roles etc. -
@gt12 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
He coached the Saders for one season nearly twenty years ago, after which he had the Canes for years and hardly made them into a forward powerhouse.
The MABs have hardly been able to develop world class forwards either. His time is gone and if that is the best we can do we really are in the shit.
That's a bit reductive really, he turned an underperforming Canes forward pack into a competitive one with the result being the team made the finals regularly rather than not which had been the case previously.
I think it's easy to underrate what Cooper did at the Canes due to his last year there and the fact they regularly lost to a stacked Crusaders team, but he really did turn them into an actual competitive side with a chance of winning.
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I think most of the key pieces were in place when he arrived (Hore, Collins, So’oialo, Masoe). Tialata and Eaton came through during his time I think, but either way that team was known for playing fast and maximizing its loose forward and back resources, not for having any real dominance in the front five at scrum, line out, or mauling.
My point is not that he was a bad coach, only that there is not that much evidence that he is, currently, a world class forwards coach who should be in the All Black set-up. The fact that we have to go back to 2002 to find the last truly dominant forward pack he was associated with speaks to that IMO.
Seriously, if Fozzie shows up with Cooper as his assistant, this board would be happy with that?
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@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Crucial said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Winger said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
@Cantab79 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I'm shattered that Dave Rennie is going to be coaching the Wallabies. IMO Rennie is the best head coach NZ has produced in the pro-era, and to see him not even progress to interview stage for the vacant AB job is terrible. Apparently the Wallabies have been talking to him for months, which is annoying as we've known Steve Hansen was retiring for ages yet it seems that NZR didn't even start discussions with candidates until after the RWC. What's the point of approaching 26 candidates if all the good ones have already been snapped up?
Whats the point of approaching 26 candidates full stop
??
What's the point of not?
If they didn't there would be accusations of not going to market.
By signalling to a range of coaches that they know meet the pre-requisite if gives these coaches a heads up that the process is starting, they are assessed to have capability that is of interest and that, if they aren't going to apply directly, they could/should start talking around to see if they can fit another candidates team.
I don't get the hang up on the NZR going to market. What does it matter?
Because it's completely and utterly pointless for one.
The should have either advertised the job and let the applications come in. Or preferable approached 4-5 max. Or if they have already made up their mind (and it looks like they have) do what the Aussies did. This seems professional. NZR looks a bit amateurish. or deceitful.
I think you are trying way too hard to support your statement. There is zero evidence or actions that support that they have made up their minds beforehand so you can remove deceitful from the equation.
As for amateurish? How on earth is covering bases amateurish? If they had simply advertised how many of those 26 would have just thought 'I won't bother'. As explained by others, going directly to those that meet initial criteria lets them know directly that they have passed that first hurdle and are welcome. Conversations can start about supporting roles etc.I think the only potential criticism of the NZR is the length of time between the RWC final and the invites going out.
I don't know when the invites were sent so I can't judge, but they should have been gone first thing on the Monday after the final. If they weren't then that's a delay.
I if you ran the process pre RWC the name would have been guaranteed to leak. There'd be a massive risk of undermining Hansen and if it was Joseph, Schmidt or Gatland, I can't imagine their employers being too chuffed. Imagine Ireland prepping for a qf against us knowing that in a few weeks your coach will be backing exactly that side.
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@gt12 said in [Poll] Next All Black Coach:
I think most of the key pieces were in place when he arrived (Hore, Collins, So’oialo, Masoe). Tialata and Eaton came through during his time I think, but either way that team was known for playing fast and maximizing its loose forward and back resources, not for having any real dominance in the front five at scrum, line out, or mauling.
My point is not that he was a bad coach, only that there is not that much evidence that he is, currently, a world class forwards coach who should be in the All Black set-up. The fact that we have to go back to 2002 to find the last truly dominant forward pack he was associated with speaks to that IMO.
Seriously, if Fozzie shows up with Cooper as his assistant, this board would be happy with that?
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree as I still think you're underrating the work he did with that pack. They weren't dominant over say the Crusaders because they didn't have the depth, but they were much better than previously when the pack was basically just the loosies playing out of their skin and assisting the superstar backs ... which yielded one finals appearance in 7 years.
