NZ All Time XI
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@virgil said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@chester-draws said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
I don't want to sound like an old bastard but I don't think anyone could argue that Marty faced a higher quality of quick bowler in his day, and didn't have the benefit of series against ZIM and the Bangles to pad the stats (although I seem to recall he played SL in their early days)
Both of them have their highest scores against Sri Lanka (without the 299 not out vs Sri Lanka, Crowe's average isn't that flash actually, and Kanes 242 not out certainly helps his average).
Crowe also played Zimbabwe, incidentally. In fact Kane has only batted two more innings than Martin against them.
Kane has played Bangladesh, but again only 6 innings.
Kane's average is good because he's a good player. There's not much padding it out with minnows (no more than anyone else).
Not many Batsmen averaged over 45 in the period Crowe played
Where as these days 50+ averages are common placeWhile I don't quite agree with you in terms of Crowes place in the echelon of greats ( although he's still probably third or fourth named in an all-time BC 11 ) I do agree with this point.
The bat technology and relative lack of top quality pace bowlers compared to the 80s and 90s mean averages are better now.
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@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@baron-silas-greenback said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
To counter that, the modern day spinners are a world ahead of the spinners that Crowe faced. And the scoring rate pressure is far greater now, tests matches move faster and that has its own set of challenges.
Not sure about that. Crowe faced some quality spinners as well in Qadir, Warne, Murali, Mushtaq Ahmed, Kumble etc.
Warne and Murali? That is the stretch that proves my point....
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@virgil said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@chester-draws said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
I don't want to sound like an old bastard but I don't think anyone could argue that Marty faced a higher quality of quick bowler in his day, and didn't have the benefit of series against ZIM and the Bangles to pad the stats (although I seem to recall he played SL in their early days)
Both of them have their highest scores against Sri Lanka (without the 299 not out vs Sri Lanka, Crowe's average isn't that flash actually, and Kanes 242 not out certainly helps his average).
Crowe also played Zimbabwe, incidentally. In fact Kane has only batted two more innings than Martin against them.
Kane has played Bangladesh, but again only 6 innings.
Kane's average is good because he's a good player. There's not much padding it out with minnows (no more than anyone else).
Not many Batsmen averaged over 45 in the period Crowe played
Where as these days 50+ averages are common placeSure. But that wasn't what I was disagreeing with. I was just saying that Kane's average is no more stacked by playing minnows than Martin's is.
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Kane was thrown into the deep end very young and had a slow start as well. His numbers in the last 5 years are absolutely astounding, no matter what era you are talking about.
Also, numbers alone don't tell the whole story. There are very few players that would score a ton in that last test under those circumstances, taking us from way behind to way ahead of the game. He's massively influential and has the ability to dominate under extreme pressure.
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@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
Sub-continent is a lot more easy to tour, especially without home town umpiring and flagrant ball tampering.
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@act-crusader said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe used a GM earlier on before the switch to DF.
I think it was the reverse, I picked up a Crowe GM bat around 95/96. Instantly improved my technique from the Ken Rutherford double scoop I had been using previously.
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@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
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@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
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@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
Who's your second quick if Boult is third? Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
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@cyclops said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
Who's your second quick if Boult is third? Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
Paddles Bond and Boult
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@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@cyclops said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
Who's your second quick if Boult is third? Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
Paddles Bond and Boult
Bond didn't play enough test cricket for me. Boult and Hadlee strike me as the only two guys who would be a unanimous selection.
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@cyclops said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@cyclops said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
Who's your second quick if Boult is third? Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
Paddles Bond and Boult
Bond didn't play enough test cricket for me. Boult and Hadlee strike me as the only two guys who would be a unanimous selection.
i saw enough.
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@donsteppa said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Jack Cowie could also be a bowling contender from stuff I’ve read in the past.
i have to have seen them play to put them in these sort of teams, but that's just my personal rule (like how Pinetree doesn't make my all time AB XV)
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@rotated I don't think Flem, Congdon, Jones or Rig were ever more than footnotes in a discussion.
On their limited records and from period reports Donnelly and Dempster have to be considered ahead of Taylor but eventually discarded because of the lack of evidence despite the strong suspicion that they would be at least his equal.
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@cyclops said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
As a bat-first keeper Watling is in the clubhouse with a four stroke lead at this point.
The only argument is if this side were to actually play games (presumably against other nations best XIs) given we don't have a wicket taking spinner, it's probably best to select the best outright keeper in which case it would be Smith.
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Flem's not even close, a shit average, and a conversion rate about the same as that American bloke who went to that island in India the other week.
