NZ All Time XI
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@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@sammyc said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@chris-b said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@hooroo said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@no-quarter said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
1969 was our the last time we've beaten them in the sub continent. Amazing.
That didn't happen to be "THE SUMMER OF 69"? did it??
Is it ok to call KW our greatest ever cricketer? Super awesome that he doesn't seem to have that ego most have to be at that level. Seems a genuine nice guy (Not that I would know, having never met him)
@Hooroo greatest batsman without a doubt, I'd still go Paddles overall though, depends how Williamson ends up at the end of his career I spose.
Pah!
I've still got a Gray-Nicholls Superscoop in the cupboard.
Lets see if Little Kane is as good as Marty Crowe using that!
He used one of those old Duncan Fearnley bats didn't he? It would look like a toothpick compared to the new bats
The DF magnum I believe. Would be twice as heavy and half as thin as the current bats
I don't want to sound like an old bastard but I don't think anyone could argue that Marty faced a higher quality of quick bowler in his day, and didn't have the benefit of series against ZIM and the Bangles to pad the stats (although I seem to recall he played SL in their early days)
balanced by today's better bowling plans, better fielding plans, and significantly better fielding.
... better bats, shorter boundaries/boundary ropes, flatter pitches in some nations, better video analysis of bowlers, better protective gear. The joys of historical comparisons...
Williamson will be head and shoulders the best by the end of his career. Would have been interesting to see where Crowe might have finished the end of his career if his knee had been better/better managed by NZC. I'd like to think a few more centuries, but not to be...
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@donsteppa said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@sammyc said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@chris-b said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@hooroo said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@no-quarter said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
1969 was our the last time we've beaten them in the sub continent. Amazing.
That didn't happen to be "THE SUMMER OF 69"? did it??
Is it ok to call KW our greatest ever cricketer? Super awesome that he doesn't seem to have that ego most have to be at that level. Seems a genuine nice guy (Not that I would know, having never met him)
@Hooroo greatest batsman without a doubt, I'd still go Paddles overall though, depends how Williamson ends up at the end of his career I spose.
Pah!
I've still got a Gray-Nicholls Superscoop in the cupboard.
Lets see if Little Kane is as good as Marty Crowe using that!
He used one of those old Duncan Fearnley bats didn't he? It would look like a toothpick compared to the new bats
The DF magnum I believe. Would be twice as heavy and half as thin as the current bats
I don't want to sound like an old bastard but I don't think anyone could argue that Marty faced a higher quality of quick bowler in his day, and didn't have the benefit of series against ZIM and the Bangles to pad the stats (although I seem to recall he played SL in their early days)
balanced by today's better bowling plans, better fielding plans, and significantly better fielding.
... better bats, shorter boundaries/boundary ropes, flatter pitches in some nations, better video analysis of bowlers, better protective gear. The joys of historical comparisons...
Williamson will be head and shoulders the best by the end of his career. Would have been interesting to see where Crowe might have finished the end of his career if his knee had been better/better managed by NZC. I'd like to think a few more centuries, but not to be...
of course, that was kinda my point. Cricket, more than any other sport i follow, seems to glorify the "old days". Things change, on both sides of the bat. Just enjoy the now.
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I like stirring people up by saying "if Bradman was playing these days..."
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@mariner4life Yep, one of many standouts in the article in the Aaron Hopa thread was just how 'small' the early pro rugby players were compared to now. Perhaps it's the length of Test matches, five days is a long time to idly wonder how Bradman would play Murali...
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@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
To counter that, the modern day spinners are a world ahead of the spinners that Crowe faced. And the scoring rate pressure is far greater now, tests matches move faster and that has its own set of challenges.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
To counter that, the modern day spinners are a world ahead of the spinners that Crowe faced. And the scoring rate pressure is far greater now, tests matches move faster and that has its own set of challenges.
Parts of the series in the UAE and some of the scoring in Adelaide have reminded me of the 1980's when 2 and a half runs per over was often solid scoring in tests.
I was trying to find an old article on Crowe talking about facing Murali for the first time and having to 'force' himself to see it as an off spin delivery rather than a leggie after being bowled in the first innings, but found this one from Crowe on Warne early in Warne's career:
MC: ... I faced Warne early in his career, probably inside the first ten Tests he played. He had a massive legspinner but I quickly realised that he was very naïve with his other skills - the wrong 'un, the topspinner, the zooter or whatever he used to call it, but they just went straight, they didn't do anything.
So I said, Warne, you are just a straight bowler with a legspinner, so I'm going to pick your legspinner and smash it with a sweep, a pull or a cut. Because my idea was: I had a bat that was four inches wide and he spun the ball 12 inches so there is no point playing it with a vertical bat, so I used the length of my bat and thought that I had him covered. In fact, there was twice as much chance of me hitting him than him getting me.
SB: Did you say that to yourself or to him?
MC: Well, not in so many words, because I worked out in my mind after facing him in a tour match that this guy is good and I would have to apply some logic here. I'm not going to be able to play him with a four-inch bat, I have to play him with the length of the bat. So I said to myself repeatedly that he was a straight bowler with a legspinner and I would go into pull or cut mode, and I nailed him.Here is the interesting thing: Allan Border, who played against me a lot, refused to bowl him to me and brought on Merv Hughes. So all my theories and plans that I was itching to put into practice were gone because I never saw Warne. Finally, he had to bowl him to me at Eden Park. We were chasing 200 to win and I hit him for three boundaries in his first over. Border moved his field every single ball. He was in panic because he had to bowl Warne, Hughes had been played out. He bowled me a wrong 'un. Everyone was on the boundary on the leg side, three guys and a short leg. And then a slip, cover, point, mid-off. He bowled a wrong 'un and it bloody turned. I got an inside edge and Langer caught it.
And so then the first over that he bowls to me for about three weeks I take him for three fours and he gets me out with a straight ball - but it actually did turn a little bit. So that's how good he was going to become. It didn't matter how many guns I had in my armoury; he had many as well. If I had faced him in ten years' time he would've had plenty of success, because anyone who turns the ball that much and is as accurate as he became is going to be what he was: the greatest legspinner, if not the greatest bowler, in the history of the game
I was lucky that I got him young. In fact, after he got me out, he then bowled the Gatting ball. Then it all started.
(http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/775219/-batting-is-a-life-of-torment)
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
To counter that, the modern day spinners are a world ahead of the spinners that Crowe faced. And the scoring rate pressure is far greater now, tests matches move faster and that has its own set of challenges.
Not sure about that. Crowe faced some quality spinners as well in Qadir, Warne, Murali, Mushtaq Ahmed, Kumble etc.
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@virgil said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@chester-draws said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
I don't want to sound like an old bastard but I don't think anyone could argue that Marty faced a higher quality of quick bowler in his day, and didn't have the benefit of series against ZIM and the Bangles to pad the stats (although I seem to recall he played SL in their early days)
Both of them have their highest scores against Sri Lanka (without the 299 not out vs Sri Lanka, Crowe's average isn't that flash actually, and Kanes 242 not out certainly helps his average).
Crowe also played Zimbabwe, incidentally. In fact Kane has only batted two more innings than Martin against them.
Kane has played Bangladesh, but again only 6 innings.
Kane's average is good because he's a good player. There's not much padding it out with minnows (no more than anyone else).
Not many Batsmen averaged over 45 in the period Crowe played
Where as these days 50+ averages are common placeWhile I don't quite agree with you in terms of Crowes place in the echelon of greats ( although he's still probably third or fourth named in an all-time BC 11 ) I do agree with this point.
The bat technology and relative lack of top quality pace bowlers compared to the 80s and 90s mean averages are better now.
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@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@baron-silas-greenback said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
To counter that, the modern day spinners are a world ahead of the spinners that Crowe faced. And the scoring rate pressure is far greater now, tests matches move faster and that has its own set of challenges.
Not sure about that. Crowe faced some quality spinners as well in Qadir, Warne, Murali, Mushtaq Ahmed, Kumble etc.
Warne and Murali? That is the stretch that proves my point....
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@virgil said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@chester-draws said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@canefan said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
I don't want to sound like an old bastard but I don't think anyone could argue that Marty faced a higher quality of quick bowler in his day, and didn't have the benefit of series against ZIM and the Bangles to pad the stats (although I seem to recall he played SL in their early days)
Both of them have their highest scores against Sri Lanka (without the 299 not out vs Sri Lanka, Crowe's average isn't that flash actually, and Kanes 242 not out certainly helps his average).
Crowe also played Zimbabwe, incidentally. In fact Kane has only batted two more innings than Martin against them.
Kane has played Bangladesh, but again only 6 innings.
Kane's average is good because he's a good player. There's not much padding it out with minnows (no more than anyone else).
Not many Batsmen averaged over 45 in the period Crowe played
Where as these days 50+ averages are common placeSure. But that wasn't what I was disagreeing with. I was just saying that Kane's average is no more stacked by playing minnows than Martin's is.
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Kane was thrown into the deep end very young and had a slow start as well. His numbers in the last 5 years are absolutely astounding, no matter what era you are talking about.
Also, numbers alone don't tell the whole story. There are very few players that would score a ton in that last test under those circumstances, taking us from way behind to way ahead of the game. He's massively influential and has the ability to dominate under extreme pressure.
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@akan004 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe also played on green tops back in the day. The pitches are much more batsmen friendly now.
Sub-continent is a lot more easy to tour, especially without home town umpiring and flagrant ball tampering.
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@act-crusader said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Crowe used a GM earlier on before the switch to DF.
I think it was the reverse, I picked up a Crowe GM bat around 95/96. Instantly improved my technique from the Ken Rutherford double scoop I had been using previously.
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@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
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@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
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@mariner4life said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@rotated said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
@mn5 said in Cricket - NZ vs Pakistan:
Just as long as everyones all time BC 11 features Williamson/Crowe/Taylor at 3/4/5.
Assuming Turner and Sutcliffe are selected as there openers they have to be because the remaining six positions need to be five bowling options and a keeper.
It was a fun period before Taylor and Williamson cemented their spots and there were super passionate arguments for Flem, Dempster, Wright, Congdon, Rig and my personal favourite Andrew Jones for that last spot.
Now the only real debatable slots would be third quick and keeper.
Boult and Baz, very little question in my eyes
Who's your second quick if Boult is third? Watling has a strong claim to the keeper's spot but with the top order we've got, it's hard to look past what Baz can offer coming out at 300/4 (or 5 if we have an all-rounder to bat 6).
