Ireland vs All Blacks (2018)
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@snowy guess the thing with today was, Read (as were a number of our leaders) wasnt playing well, so I guess from that perspective it makes it harder for them to see what changes they need to make for the team when they are struggling with thier own shit.
I'd like to say we would unlikely see so many of our top players in that sort of form again, but many of our top players are not playing well in Black.
Given many of them will be given a lighter load in Super rugby next year, there really is little scope for someone else to force thier way in through excellence cos we know they wont drop someone who is out of form if they havent been playing.
For me, the most frustrating aspect was the apparent lack of a cohesive gameplan (although the fact everyone thought kicking was cool, that was obviously a tactic, often regardless of game situation and while if all kicks were on point, maybe it mighta worked, but pretty much every single one was either to a player or needed to go through the hands)
The Irish on the other hand, were all on the same page, thier defence was up quickly and together, but not overcomiting to ruck or tackle situations, and every time they got a big turn over or got us into touch or beat us in a critical moment, they all celebrated, knowing the importance of those moments, whereas we, were flat.
Saying some of our lads are tired, probably has some truth, but as @Steven-Harris points out, isnt this why half of NZ came on this tour, to ensure players were as best prepared physically and mentally? Didnt look that way.
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@booboo said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Congrats Ireland. Well deserved. Can't really find anything to whinge about (other than your godawful commentators - you should bbbt e embarrassed!). Two teams going hard. Could gave gone either way. Ireland ever so slightly better for longer.
Yes those comms made me desperate for Marshall (although not Kearns, fat cnut). I cut the audio fairly early.
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Also, before I forget (and I'm sure it's mentioned in the thread), I'm bloody surprised that Kearney stayed on the field after colliding with Ioane in the air.
Now, I'm happy he did stay on the field but it goes against how the NH have been ruling those in the last few years - players have been red carded for that.
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We need to think about how we play the game vs Ireland, SA, England and Scotland (Not Wales). These teams have figured out a plan to beat us although Ireland/SA have the cattle to do it. We cannot play with 35% of the ball against these well organised teams! I have mentioned it before but I dont think our defence is the biggest issue considering how little ball we have (Same against SA, England) but we do not look like scoring points let alone tries against these structures.
Our attack has issues. Except first test against BIL when we hit hard flat runners off 9 we have really struggled and have been physically dominated- as we were today.
I do not even want to say I know the answers but I feel we are being to predictable in our structure. What is glaring is we hardly ever get quick go forward ball when teams play us like this.
my two cents- I think we need to simplify our launch plays as when we go more than one pass we are inevitably hit behind the gain line and never recover. When we used Reiko once of the lineout move he almost scored. We have powerful dangerous wingers and they (Ireland) game plan is to denying them the ball. Straight from set phase let them get go forward and play off that. This is why I like Naholo as with him and Reiko they will always go forward. (Maybe Laumape is option?). I know these seem simple but I get frustrated watching our attack game, when we play other teams ok, but when we play these teams we need to think different.
add this to the millions of other opinions
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@steven-harris said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Outplayed and out coached by the Irish on the day,no real complaints from me.
Not the end of the world, but I have seen plenty of evidence to suggest signs of staleness within this coaching group.No question it was a points decision to Joe Schmidt after this mornings match and that what’s worrying me
We have the players,but is this coaching group getting the best of out of this group..?I guess it all depends on if you believe Hansen, that we're trying new things and they're taking time to bed in (along with the powder dry theory) or if this is currently all we've got and the best we can hope for is a few players freshening up and some marginal improvements from the likes of Moody and Cane coming back (seemed like Ireland were missing more key players than us?).
Really we could easily have lost four games this year and something that seems to have changed in recent weeks (since the loss to SA) is that we've been kicking the ball a lot more. Understandable in the wet against England, but it hasn't worked for us.
What might prove to be a bit of a mistake is is Hansen's sticking too rigidly to his idea that you don't lose your place through injury. I'm inclined to think George Bridge should have been picked for TRC instead of NMS and maybe we would have discovered that our best back three is Ioane, Bridge and Smith. (Since Squire is apparently broken, I'd put him on a plane home and replace him with Bridge - and play George).
Other one is SBW. They've tried playing him into form when maybe he should have been sent to M10 Cup and Laumape been given a chance. Today's backline configuration seems to lack a really big munter who can punch holes in the line. Which is why I can see why they've been keen to retain SBW, but maybe they should have backed Laumape.
All in all, we seem to have quite a few problems in the backs. We also have some potential solutions, but those solutions are green as grass and I'm pretty convinced Hansen will stick with experience unless his hand is forced through injury.
In the forwards, I'd like to think it's just a matter of fine-tuning, freshening up and bringing back a few key players. We won the lineouts today, bounced back in the scrums and it wasn't the forwards (very often) who wastefully kicked possession away and forced us to defend for most of the first 60 minutes.
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@nepia the irish comms were so biased it was crazy. They were calling for a yellow card on the new suitcase's supposedly high tackle which was actually not even a high tackle. Then ignored BBBR getting a shoulder to the chin and called it a good front on tackle. All after us a "very cynical side" calling Irish comms are the worst. Just blatant cheerleading and not anywhere near close to an impartial call.
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@act-crusader said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
Is that you Enoka?
I’d love to know when theses so called generations started and ended, because all of them have lost tight games and won tight ones as well.
I'd say the three eras were pretty clear, lining up approximately with the captaincies of Umaga, McCaw and Read. The first group that effected the culture change and restored the meritocracy out of the ashes of the '03 World Cup - most left after 2007 or shortly after. The second group were their replacements many of who were 'complicated' players who blossomed in the new culture/environment many of whom had been discarded at international level previously (Nonu, SBW, Weepu, Kaino, even Thorn). The third generation is essentially the class of 2012.
Because Hansen and Read are still around and Barrett/Smith/Brodie won a RWC with the old guard there is a natural inclination to draw a line between the whole Henry/Hansen era. But the truth is no one in this side has lost a World Cup and Read is the only one who played more than a handful of tests with the World Cup hoodoo hanging over the team. The dark shit that fueled the two RWC wins is gone and we are left with a side of players and coaches who were born on third base and think they hit a triple.
Hansen has often said something along the lines of the team always looking to add to the AB legacy. What has been added since 2016? Historic losses to Ireland and couldn't close out a Lions series.
Forget the RWC. This side needs to start thinking about how they could be the ones to give the Bledisloe back.
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@nevorian said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@snowy I haven't seen the match, what happened, did we hold the ball too much and our backs actually can't do anything?
There was an element of that that, but kicked a lot away initially. We actually looked clueless on attack but the penalties, some justified, some not, at the breakdown in the first half killed us.
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@raznomore said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia the irish comms were so biased it was crazy. They were calling for a yellow card on the new suitcase's supposedly high tackle which was actually not even a high tackle. Then ignored BBBR getting a shoulder to the chin and called it a good front on tackle. All after us a "very cynical side" calling Irish comms are the worst. Just blatant cheerleading and not anywhere near close to an impartial call.
Yeah, it was so nuts I felt the need to create my first thread since we changed over to the new software (as I'm such a noob that I it took me longer than it should to figure out I needed to pick a section to post it in).
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@raznomore said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@nepia the irish comms were so biased it was crazy. They were calling for a yellow card on the new suitcase's supposedly high tackle which was actually not even a high tackle.
Not sure why Squire's getting a hard time over this game. He was a bit anonymous vs England, but in this game he seemed to be pretty busy to me. Plenty of carries in the tight and I'm pretty sure it was him under Stander when the Irish drove over the line. Only blemish was the high tackle penalty.
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@rotated said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
we are left with a side of players and coaches who were born on third base and think they hit a triple.
That's quality fella, love your work
Our attacking game has really struggled the last few weeks. Just have not managed to get going. We could still have won that game if we could hold some of those passes.
Now I've settled down a bit, I'm less frustrated. Ireland are a quality outfit, and hard to beat at home. In fact, all the NH teams (except France) have lifted their game from the last world cup. Basically it's the same message that we should get: don't bitch, just get better. Go away, and get better.
This year has been a mixed bag. We burgled one against SA, and lost one we should have won. We scraped home against England - and I do wonder if the effort from last week drained the tank a bit. That side today looked as flat as any I've seen.
Still, we've won 11/13, with one to go and we think it's a terrible year.
I go back a bit to 2007, and wonder if there is a bit of a plan going on. We were looking at superbly conditioned athletes going into that tournament - and playing it in France in Autumn can mean some hard ,fast, tracks. Despite our loss in that tourney, it felt like our game plan had one eye on the weather.
Oct/Nov in Japan next year will be hottish - probably low 20's - and probably support some open, fast rugby. Here's hoping that the different conditions, and playing these top sides away from their home make mor ethan a 7 poitn difference to us
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Think the better team won.
Only thing I would change is that aaron Smith needs to go. TJP is just better.
Gutting that Ireland stole our move and scored from it.
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@nzzp I agree they are trying new things, we have drifted from what made us 'great' but to keep trying the same 'innovative' things over and over when it is ineffective and not changing up was the dumb part, probably being a bit too cute and expecting the Irish to roll over.
Ireland played well, and played smart, we didnt play well, but we were dumb too, not ideal combination when you opposition isnt giving you much to deal with.
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@chris-b hoping you are right,and I hate to state the obvious,these end of season tours wether it’s the North heading South in July or us heading up to the their autumn..how full are the tanks both mentally and physically for both parties...?..
Several looked flat today,I would have gone for pace in the loose and started both Ardie and Todd -
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@steven-harris I think without a doubt the EOSTs are tough on the travelling teams. Reading about Sam Whitelock's injury problems earlier this week - no wonder he's not looked his usual self.
Also I'm thinking Beauden's probably pretty mentally fatigued. Who else has played big minutes this season - Codie Taylor, Aaron Smith, Reiko Ioane - probably Ben Smith.
Some of the others have had truncated seasons due to injury, but even then, maybe they're just not quite as hungry as they need to be.
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@chris-b suspect both are banged up,even Read took a knock just before halftime..quite frankly I would not play any of them against Italy especially if they are carrying injuries ..
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@tim said in Ireland Vs All Blacks:
@chris-b Agreed on carrying frequently injured players. Add Squire to that list.
Hansen is a pretty arrogant coach, who has proven unwilling to tailor selections to the opposition, or to put results before loyalty.
Yes, well, I'm still mystified as to why Joe Moody needed to get those warm-up minutes in that semi-final, but Liam Squire didn't.
Bad news for Blues fans - Hansen doesn't answer his phone when Leon calls!
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ABs complacent, and only got serious in last 20 or so. Trying things, and not playing to win.
Suspect the result would have been different if this was the RWC final.
That said, hard to feel comfortable about our 9 -10 axis. We seem to be vulnerable if plan A doesn't work.
Hope Shag really rubs it in tonight.
