All Black Squad for Rugby Championship
-
@taniwharugby said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
So those games that don't count, is SBW allowed to play in them?
That is the problem, and likely why NZR are appealing. The inter-squad game for C-M and the game of 3 halves don't count towards the suspension but he still isn't allowed to play in them. And a 4 week suspension has now become 7 weeks. WR have totally fucked up here.
-
@Bovidae said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@taniwharugby said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
So those games that don't count, is SBW allowed to play in them?
That is the problem, and likely why NZR are appealing. The inter-squad game for C-M and the game of 3 halves don't count towards the suspension but he still isn't allowed to play in them. And a 4 week suspension has now become 7 weeks. WR have totally fucked up here.
When you consider that players in the game of three halves are liable for sanction should they do something wrong then surely you can't have it both ways. If WR don't consider it to be a game by definition then he should be free to play, if it isn't a game by definition then there shouldn't be any potential for citings from it.
Should the original decision stand and someone gets a RC in the match they will surely argue that it has no standing as it isn't a 'match' according to this precedent. -
@Stargazer said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@rotated said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@Stargazer said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
The games they didn't count: the preseason game Counties Manukau "A" v Counties Manukau "B" and the All Blacks game of two halves (v Taranaki and Counties Manukau).
Full decision from disciplinary committee – Sonny Bill Williams
It's hard to shed a tear for SBW after his stupidity, but this logic is ridiculous. If SBW was under contract to North Harbour for example he would miss in the same time frame, all of which would count:
- BIL 3rd test.
- Blues vs Sunwolves.
- Harbour vs Counties Trial 29th July
- Harbour vs Northland Trial 4th August
- Harbour vs Northland Trial 10th August
- Harbour vs Otago Round 1 17th August
- Bledisloe I - 20th August.
He would be free and clear comfortably with a couple of conditioning runs under his belt.
Also worth noting that he misses both the Counties Round 1 fixture at 7:30 NZT and the Bledisloe at 9:30 NZT that day. There is a strong argument that he is being double penalized there - because if he was scrubbed out for the Bledisloe and Counties were playing on the Sunday instead he would likely play that game.
I hope NZ appeal this, they would have a strong case. No matter how you count the games he should be free to play following the conclusion of the Counties round 1 fixture which would end about 20 minutes before the test starts.
Nonsense. It's very clear he would never play two matches on the same day, so they could never count both the Counties Round 1 game and the Bledisloe I test if they are played on the same day. If you had read the decision, you'd have known that the Judicial Committee asked for SBW's upcoming playing Schedule and the Schedule provided didn't include any other games than the one's mentioned in my earlier post.
If those games had been on the Sunday, his suspension would end after the Sunday.
Also, preseason games count, but pure trial matches don't. See paragraphs 31-32 of the decision, esp as to what is considered a meaningful match with meaningful consequences for a player. That excludes several of the Harbour games that you listed.
FYI NZ have justifiably appealed as suggested.
Why wouldn't the Harbour vs Northland games wouldn't count? From reading the decision the reason that fixture counts is because "North Harbour play in the Mitre 10 Cup". I'm assuming that is why that sentence is in the decision. Competitive fixtures against comparable opposition qualify as games it seems. Regrettably Northland is still in the top flight - so these would count.
The reason apparent lack of a distinct opposition in the Counties A vs B game and lack of adherence to the basic structure of a rugby game in the case of the game of three halves are the reasons those have been disqualified. Not at all similar.
My point re: the Counties Round 1 fixture obviously was that if this game was on any of the 3 other game days that round - he would be cleared to play either the test (if on the Thursday or Friday) or for Counties (if on the Sunday).
The week/game suspension structure works well when there is a standard format for all players, but here SBW is being punished for Counties having an unconventional preseason structure, the Blues not making the playoffs and Counties round 1 fixture being on a Saturday. All completely out of his control. He is also being punished for stupidity, but at least punish him fairly.
-
So why did it take until this week for the decision to be made about which games count and which dont? Has there been a protest or did someone recently alert them to how shit thier suspensions are given you can use a lowe4 level game as part of your suspension.
-
Game of two halves on August 11, so can't leave squad past Friday I'd have thought.
Anyone seen any announcement/statement regarding the number of players? -
@pakman Haven't seen it. Last year, they announced the AB squad for Bledisloe and RC on Monday, 1 August, so before the Super Rugby Final on 6 August 2016. The squad assembled for a 2-day camp before that Final (on Thursday 4 August), minus the 5 Hurricanes players. The squad assembled again a week later, the day before the game of two halves on Friday 12 August and left for Sydney on Sunday 14 August. Bledisloe I was on 20 August 2016.
The question is, will they name the squad tomorrow, or will they wait until after the SR Final? Will there be a camp again this week (minus the Crusaders players), or will the entire squad assemble next week?
Last year's squad consisted of 18 forwards and 14 backs; they also named 6 additional players (4 backs & 2 forwards) to attend camp.
-
That would suggest Monday 31 July for the announcement.
Areas for change from Lions squad:
Is Cruden replaced? Could be a chance for DMac, although I'd leave that for now.
Will TKB be available? If so, who comes in?
Who replaces Charlie? I assume Nepo Laulala
I expect one 'dedicated' forward to be added. Case could be made for front row (Hames?) or loosie (Ioane?).
Tradition would suggest Todd and Goodhue attend as ancillaries. -
As SBW is not suspended for the Bledisloe, I would take Crotty and Goodhue in midfield. They are used to play together and Goodhue is very good in defense, so no risk is taken.
-
Liam Coltman out for the season!
This has just been posted on the Otago FB page:
Otago Rugby regretfully announces that Liam ‘the Beast’ Coltman suffered an ankle injury during the Highlanders quarter final which requires surgery. Unfortunately for us, he will miss the 2017 Mitre 10 Cup season but will be back with Otago in 2018! All the best for a speedy recovery mate
So it's Coles, Taylor, Harris .... Parsons, if our hookers go down?
-
Parsons has the headgear on already.
And he's not taking it off for dinner!
-
Perhaps a spot for Aumua on the EOYT if he delivers in the Mitre 10 Cup.
-
@Stargazer said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
Liam Coltman out for the season!
This has just been posted on the Otago FB page:
Otago Rugby regretfully announces that Liam ‘the Beast’ Coltman suffered an ankle injury during the Highlanders quarter final which requires surgery. Unfortunately for us, he will miss the 2017 Mitre 10 Cup season but will be back with Otago in 2018! All the best for a speedy recovery mate
So it's Coles, Taylor, Harris .... Parsons, if our hookers go down?
Dixon surely before Parsons. And Funnell. Please ...
-
@booboo I agree, but the AB coaches have never shown any interest in Funnell and Dixon, as far as I know. Parsons is capped though, only due to playing for the Baabaas at the right time at the right place a few years ago, but capped nevertheless.
-
Parsons was also training with the ABs last year, but got injured.
-
-
Actually, Parsons played against Australia as a substitute last year. IIRC, he was picked ahead of Coltman.
-
@Tim That photo bears a striking resemblance to Mils.
-
I know he has a number of detractors here, but I'd like to see Brad Shields rewarded for his constant high workrate. With Luata gone north, I think he is the most Kainoesque in terms of physicality. Look how he smashed the big Lions forwards during the first half of the semi final. His tackling is really impressive. He may have tits for hands once in a game but he won't let the team down if selected.
-
@cgrant the big lions forwards? the pack weight was clearly in favour of the hurricanes. now maybe that's because ardie's a giant, but...
luatua is a really big loss. can't help but think he might have stayed if thrown a bit more of a selection bone. -
I can't think of a single AB game where Luatua impressed me. Granted there weren't too many games but I was never convinced. And neither it appears were the AB coaches.
-
@Billy-Tell Yeah I feel pretty similar, feel like I've missed something that many others seem to see!
-
@reprobate I think Luatua is a big loss, too. But I think the situation with Read at 8 is the same as Ritchie at 7: the selectors want them to be on the field for every one of the 80. So Luatua likely only to start against teams such as Italy, although maybe riding some pine.
For me, Steve's game is not built round being an enforcer (Christ I love it when JK envelops and manhandles chancers who wander onto his patch and try to make yards close to the ruck, e.g. Itoje, etc.). Squire and Ioane seem to have the potential to grow into this role. Shields, maybe, although the wise men have already had a good look.
So can't begrudge SL earning some bucks for a couple of years. Post the RWC he'll be 27, so young enough to return.
Of course it will all turn to custard if, God forbid, Read gets crocked seriously enough to take time out in the test window. In which case, Luatua's departure will be a major shag up! -
@reprobate said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@cgrant the big lions forwards? the pack weight was clearly in favour of the hurricanes. now maybe that's because ardie's a giant, but...
luatua is a really big loss. can't help but think he might have stayed if thrown a bit more of a selection bone.I agree; this was shown on screen during the first scrum in the Lions v Canes semi (I've added the differences):
Pack weights (in kg): Lions 881, Hurricanes 912 (+/- 31)
Tight five weights (in kg): Lions 576, Hurricanes 595 (+/- 19)
Frontrow weights (in kg): Lions 351, Hurricanes 358 (+/- 7)So both the Canes' second row and backrow were 12 kg heavier than the Lions'.
-
@Bones @Billy-Tell do you remember when kaino was first on the scene? debuted at 21, not a regular starter for another 4 years or so?
luatua was a super-talented and very young (22?)guy, who was a bit loose, but had the ability to do things few others can when first picked. then he got dropped for being unfit or whatever it was, and was never given another proper chance - despite being an absolute standout for the blues, tightening up his game, and being one of their few real leaders. brilliant against the lions. a guy with all the skills to stand out in super rugby, and the size and strength to play with the big boys - a big loss precisely because we haven't got to see him at his best in the AB jersey. -
I can't agree more. I see that Reason was arguing (https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/95211847/mark-reason-where-was-the-all-blacks-love-for-growing-number-of-exiles) that Luatua is one example of Hansen being a bit out of touch.
Clocks are right twice a day, because I do think they've fucked up with Luatua. As @taniwharugby says, he's probably just fucking unlucky to be behind Read because he plays his best rugby at 8. However, I think he had the talent to be the next 6 we were loking for - all in all though, I reckon the coaches blew it by not giving him another chance.
Right now, I think he's playing better than Kaino and I'd rather JK was going and SL was staying.
There goes the bat sign at Nepia's, for sure.
-
@gt12 said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
I can't agree more. I see that Reason was arguing (https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/95211847/mark-reason-where-was-the-all-blacks-love-for-growing-number-of-exiles) that Luatua is one example of Hansen being a bit out of touch.
Clocks are right twice a day, because I do think they've fucked up with Luatua. As @taniwharugby says, he's probably just fucking unlucky to be behind Read because he plays his best rugby at 8. However, I think he had the talent to be the next 6 we were loking for - all in all though, I reckon the coaches blew it by not giving him another chance.
Right now, I think he's playing better than Kaino and I'd rather JK was going and SL was staying.
There goes the bat sign at Nepia's, for sure.
Luatua was playing better than Kaino for the Blues and was really top notch for them. That said, JK went into full beast mode when he left the 'phone box in his black outfit!
-
Don't get me wrong, I still think JK is playing well. I just have a feeling that SL might be able to match it, with another however many years left to get better. When JK came out, he was loose as, but clearly ridiculously talented. I think that in today's market, keeping Luatua (who is also pretty fucking well rounded) in the tent might have been a better bet.
-
@gt12 Not sure much between us.
Sad to say, JK won't make the RWC, so his replacement is top priority, and Read isn't that far behind him.
Comes down to money. It seems to me that NZRFU needs to allocate sufficient funding to ensure the no. 2's in each position are paid market rate. Not sure how far it could have gone, but Shag's reaction to SL news suggests a substantial pay rise WAS on the cards if he'd re-signed. -
@reprobate debuted in baabaas game that was. But it wasn't that surprising that he wasn't back on the AB scene for a few years given the quality in front of him from 05-08.
Luatua debuted in 2013 and played 11 tests that year. Started half of them if I recall correctly. That's a pretty decent opportunity in my eyes. Come 2014 Messam was playing better footy and was the mainstay and rightly so IMO. Luatua's opportunities dried up. 2015 the year to forget for Dolph....
I think it's a loss for NZ rugby because losing a player that is just hitting their straps at only 26 is not good for provincial or super rugby. But for the ABs? I don't think it is.
-
People are hoping Luatua coulda been a contender, coulda been somebody...
...instead of heaving overseas, which is what he's done, let's face it. It was you, Charley (Piutau then Faumuina...)
Maybe he would have been great. We'll never know...
-
@reprobate
What I mean is that the Lions threw the ball relentlessly to their big men (Van Rooyen, 120 kg, Marx, 117 kg, Ferreira 120 kg and Mostert, 112 kg) to punch holes through the Canes defense, and that Shields managed to stop them dead in their tracks, at least during the first half. These men are not exactly punies, aren't they ? -
When are these opportunities that Luatua should have been given? During the Lions tour when he had already signed to go overseas?*
He had worked his way back into the ABs for the EOYT after a drop in form which saw Messam, Squire and Dixon go ahead of him. He then chose to piss off chasing cash. How is that Hansen's fault?- personally i would have picked him for the Lions instead of the injured Squire but based on form not 'giving him a chance'.
-
I'm not sure who you are replying too, but I think the argument many were making was that on form, he should have been there for the Lions.
While he went on the end of year tour in 2016, he didn't get many opportunities - not chosen to play against Ireland, but played the full 80 against Italy, wasn't chosen against Ireland, and didn't play against France. He was pretty clearly seen as the back up 8, so I wonder if the message he got was that he's got no path until Read retires. In Hansen's defense, I'm not sure how they could have used him differently, because they clearly want Read to play 80.
He announced he was leaving in February, and was clearly one of the best 6 loosies going around, so I think it's a bit sad that he wasn't chosen for the Lions - on form.
-
The All Blacks, minus the Crusaders contingent, head into training camp tomorrow and it will be worthwhile keeping an eye on who is invited as previous get-togethers have thrown out big clues about who the selectors are considering for future selection. This year there is particular relevance as with two games and three tests in November, the All Blacks intend to take 37 players with them to Europe and have a proper look at a handful of emerging players. Presumably the coaches will take the opportunity to bring some of those players on the far range of their radar into camp so they can start the process of embedding them into the systems and game plans. Also, given the intense nature of the Rugby Championship, the All Blacks will end up having to call in reinforcements from outside their original squad and it pays to have a wider group having had some kind of exposure rather than be thrown in cold. There's also been a couple of departures - and a few more pending - from the squad that was picked to play the Lions, with Charlie Faumuina and Aaron Cruden already in France and Tawera Kerr-Barlow and Malakai Fekitoa making their way after the Mitre 10 Cup.
The rest of the article is the usual speculation about which players could be called up. What's interesting to read is that apparently the squad is going into camp tomorrow without actually having been named (unlike last year).
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11897722
-
You would expect there will be an extra layer of fatigue for this group coming on the back of the Lions series plus the Chiefs, Hurricanes and Crusaders All Blacks having all made an extra trip to South Africa. Will be interesting how this plays out over the RC and EOYT.
-
@gt12 said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
I'm not sure who you are replying too, but I think the argument many were making was that on form, he should have been there for the Lions.
While he went on the end of year tour in 2016, he didn't get many opportunities - not chosen to play against Ireland, but played the full 80 against Italy, wasn't chosen against Ireland, and didn't play against France. He was pretty clearly seen as the back up 8, so I wonder if the message he got was that he's got no path until Read retires. In Hansen's defense, I'm not sure how they could have used him differently, because they clearly want Read to play 80.
He announced he was leaving in February, and was clearly one of the best 6 loosies going around, so I think it's a bit sad that he wasn't chosen for the Lions - on form.
Wasn't replying to anyone in particular, just the general theme of that article above.
I agree that he should have been picked for the Lions on form but can understand why he wasn't after he had signed overseas. -
@gt12 said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
I'm not sure who you are replying too, but I think the argument many were making was that on form, he should have been there for the Lions.
While he went on the end of year tour in 2016, he didn't get many opportunities - not chosen to play against Ireland, but played the full 80 against Italy, wasn't chosen against Ireland, and didn't play against France. He was pretty clearly seen as the back up 8, so I wonder if the message he got was that he's got no path until Read retires. In Hansen's defense, I'm not sure how they could have used him differently, because they clearly want Read to play 80.
He announced he was leaving in February, and was clearly one of the best 6 loosies going around, so I think it's a bit sad that he wasn't chosen for the Lions -
I think that sums it up pretty well , he was pretty close , but not quite there,
IMO , shame he is going , not sure he will ever be a starting ab , but good depth player nonetheless
-
-
I trust the usual Fern suspects have Chch Airport staked out?
-
Post 76 of 273