B&I Lions 2017
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
@MiketheSnow said in B&I Lions 2017:
Another take on 2005
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40069682
Woodward pissed on his own parade and he obviously learned a lot from Alistair Campbell because he's not man enough to admit his failings.
What a fascinating article - I look forward to hearing the radio production, thanks for sharing.
Agreed
Seemingly every few years when he is asked about this he has a different take on how we would have done it differently - last time it was base the team in Australia and fly over for the tests!He is unlikely to say he was wrong in his handling of the tour, that is not his style. He has said that in retrospect he was maybe the wrong type of coach for the Lions gig. And he was right.
The most curious thing in the article is how Woodward bemoans what an impossible task it is to convene the Lions against a NZ side that play year in year out (among a litany of other hurdles he lists).
Woodward was appointed Lions coach in February 2004. Henry was appointed All Blacks coach December 2003. Looking at the prospects for those roles come Lions tour I don't think one had a clear advantage. Ted essentially had one season to prepare for the Lions all while picking up the pieces from another RWC loss, changing captains and capping 11+ players etc. Honestly most of the rebuilding was done on the EOYT when McCaw returned, Carter moved to 10, Mehrts and Marshall moved on etc.
Mate, that is somewhat disingenuous. The time they were appointed bears no comparison to the time they had with their players. Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc but so does every international coach. You just cannot compare coaching a national side to the Lions. Not quite apples and oranges but certainly cookers and eaters.
There were also massive advantages for Woodward trying to bringing three (four actually,) nations together over a series of warm up fixtures vs bringing five franchises together with one test against Fiji. The Lions squad was also significantly more experienced at test level as they had four nations to cap players and we only had two! The ABs also had untried key combinations going into that series too, Marshall and Carter had played 4 minutes against Fiji together at test level and hardly at all at Super level.
Hmm. Really?
History has not been kind to Woodward.
Agreed. And he doesn't always help himself in this respect -
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There are 2 separate issues IMO.
- the schedule
- the itinerary
The schedule, as in getting here half a week before the first game. That's the Lions unions own issue.
The itinerary. It's hard, hardest ever I agree. But the choice is between hard or too soft. There's no 'just right ' option available in NZ anymore. The provinces can't cope anymore, that level is hollowed out.
But I do believe the hardness of the itinerary is over blown. There's an easy beat scratch team first up followed by the weakest NZ super franchise. The NZ Moari are also a scratch team so have no cohesion advantage over the Lions.
But there aren't easy games. The midweek team will have to contribute, which is why this tour is a bigger deal than an average tour.
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
What a fascinating article - I look forward to hearing the radio production, thanks for sharing.
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@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
Mate, that is somewhat disingenuous. The time they were appointed bears no comparison to the time they had with their players. Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc but so does every international coach. You just cannot compare coaching a national side to the Lions. Not quite apples and oranges but certainly cookers and eaters.
They without doubt are unique challenges. Each cycle is different. Woodward dwells on the challenges that he believes he faced as is his right, but I disagree with the premise that the All Blacks were the unstoppable juggernaut that they subsequently became as that series began.
When both coaches were appointed the bookmakers and pundits saw this as a very close series - one the Lions would have been favored in on a neutral field. The All Blacks set up really was in that much turmoil, moving onto their third coach in four years, fifth captain in six years. You can't underestimate the work it took to move expectations from there - to what the Lions press seem to concede was one of the better sides of all time in just 18 months.
Woodward saw his job as being relatively easy remember. He even mentions in his article - he had an all reigning, all conquering World Champion English side and they just needed a few Irish and Welsh players to put them over the top. He had the reigns of that English team and torpedoed them following 2003, then poorly integrated the Welsh/Irish contingent.
If we are talking about Hansen vs Gatland this time around I would completely agree though. Hansen has had 14 years of smooth sailing, has been planning for this tour in some capacity for 4 years and aside from a hiccup in Chicago has been invincible for two years now including a World Cup - literally everything is in his favour. This was not the case in 2005.
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
Mate, that is somewhat disingenuous. The time they were appointed bears no comparison to the time they had with their players. Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc but so does every international coach. You just cannot compare coaching a national side to the Lions. Not quite apples and oranges but certainly cookers and eaters.
They without doubt are unique challenges. Each cycle is different. Woodward dwells on the challenges that he believes he faced as is his right, but I disagree with the premise that the All Blacks were the unstoppable juggernaut that they subsequently became as that series began.
When both coaches were appointed the bookmakers and pundits saw this as a very close series - one the Lions would have been favored in on a neutral field. The All Blacks set up really was in that much turmoil, moving onto their third coach in four years, fifth captain in six years. You can't underestimate the work it took to move expectations from there - to what the Lions press seem to concede was one of the better sides of all time in just 18 months.
Woodward saw his job as being relatively easy remember. He even mentions in his article - he had an all reigning, all conquering World Champion English side and they just needed a few Irish and Welsh players to put them over the top. He had the reigns of that English team and torpedoed them following 2003, then poorly integrated the Welsh/Irish contingent.
If we are talking about Hansen vs Gatland this time around I would completely agree though. Hansen has had 14 years of smooth sailing, has been planning for this tour in some capacity for 4 years and aside from a hiccup in Chicago has been invincible for two years now including a World Cup - literally everything is in his favour. This was not the case in 2005.
Well, as I said "'Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc ". I acknowledge that Henry had his issues, but his issues were so far away from Woodward's issues. For sure he handled his issues a lot better, but let's remember that Ted had many of the same issues that Woodward did in the Lions tour in 2001 and he didn't come up trumps. Yeah 2-1 is better than 3-zip and the individual matches were a lot closer but that was against an ageing Wallaby side rather than a NZ side that had won 11 out of the last 13 matches under Henry. That's not a shabby record and does not indicate a team in turmoil. to compare the two is just pointless.
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For all the reminiscing and rehashing of things, this tour is likely to be "the last great rugby tour" as I heard someone describe it recently.
It's against New Zealand for starters.
It's against a lot of tough sides crammed into a short space of time. No room for the faint-hearted.
It's a Mission Improbable yet everyone will watch just to see if the improbable could become possible - outside of NZ anyway.
The next tour is going to be under new global agreement in 2021 against South Africa. Who knows where South African rugby will be at that stage. The revised touring schedule with tours moved to July was immediately gobbled up by the English Premiership clubs saying they were moving their final to the end of June and saying they were still going to start the season in September. As a bone-headed move following at least some element of sensible re-ordering of the global season, this takes some beating. At least, the PRO12 intends to shorten their league season, start later and finish sooner (well so far they've said that, but let's see what the English and French clubs decide to do with the European Cup).
With that grabbing of the empty space in June, there will now be concerted calls to shorten the Lions tour to 7-8 matches, to provide some prep time in-country before the tour starts.
Eventually, it's possible that by the time NZ's turn rolls around again, there'll have been a decision to just do some prep-time and have a three-test series.
So I for one, will watch this one with even greater interest.
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Even under current season structure; all it would take to free up an extra week for a Lions year is for the 4 home unions to come to an agreement with the 2 leagues to have 1 midweek round at some stage during the season.
Put a midweek round somewhere in the Xmas/NY holiday season.
Job done.
They have big squads, big enough to player League during international windows. They could cope with that.
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Am keen to see how Maro Itoje goes. There has been so much hype in England about him, however to me he seems to more concerned with ruck inspecting, guard-dog duty with the occasional spot tackle thrown in rather than actually moving bodies, cleaning out successfully then getting up getting to the next ruck and doing it all again..
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@Rapido said in B&I Lions 2017:
Even under current season structure; all it would take to free up an extra week for a Lions year is for the 4 home unions to come to an agreement with the 2 leagues to have 1 midweek round at some stage during the season.
Put a midweek round somewhere in the Xmas/NY holiday season.
Job done.
They have big squads, big enough to player League during international windows. They could cope with that.
Yep sounds easy to say. Not all teams could cope well with a midweek match given some have greater depth than others.
The point of the changes to the PRO12 from 2018/19 onwards is the target date is to take matches out of international windows. And for European Cup to be done in Dec and Jan up to quarter-finals if possible by bumping the Six Nations forward a week (or shortening it as the RFU/PRL/LNR want to do).
It's still a power game between English and French clubs and the Unions.
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@Catogrande That "aging Wallabies side" under Rod Macqueen was pretty good mind. They won all four of the big events they were involved in, before and after the 2001 Lions series: 1999 RWC, 2000 3N, 2001 Lions Tour, 2001 3N (though Eddie Jones took over starting at this series). Post Lions' tour the Aussies were still pretty strong - 2003 RWC finalists, and it wasn't until 2005 that the All Blacks were able to turn around Australia's dominance of them since 1998.
Australia in 1999-2001 certainly a more impressive resume than the All Blacks had in 2003-05.
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@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
Mate, that is somewhat disingenuous. The time they were appointed bears no comparison to the time they had with their players. Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc but so does every international coach. You just cannot compare coaching a national side to the Lions. Not quite apples and oranges but certainly cookers and eaters.
They without doubt are unique challenges. Each cycle is different. Woodward dwells on the challenges that he believes he faced as is his right, but I disagree with the premise that the All Blacks were the unstoppable juggernaut that they subsequently became as that series began.
When both coaches were appointed the bookmakers and pundits saw this as a very close series - one the Lions would have been favored in on a neutral field. The All Blacks set up really was in that much turmoil, moving onto their third coach in four years, fifth captain in six years. You can't underestimate the work it took to move expectations from there - to what the Lions press seem to concede was one of the better sides of all time in just 18 months.
Woodward saw his job as being relatively easy remember. He even mentions in his article - he had an all reigning, all conquering World Champion English side and they just needed a few Irish and Welsh players to put them over the top. He had the reigns of that English team and torpedoed them following 2003, then poorly integrated the Welsh/Irish contingent.
If we are talking about Hansen vs Gatland this time around I would completely agree though. Hansen has had 14 years of smooth sailing, has been planning for this tour in some capacity for 4 years and aside from a hiccup in Chicago has been invincible for two years now including a World Cup - literally everything is in his favour. This was not the case in 2005.
Well, as I said "'Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc ". I acknowledge that Henry had his issues, but his issues were so far away from Woodward's issues. For sure he handled his issues a lot better, but let's remember that Ted had many of the same issues that Woodward did in the Lions tour in 2001 and he didn't come up trumps. Yeah 2-1 is better than 3-zip and the individual matches were a lot closer but that was against an ageing Wallaby side rather than a NZ side that had won 11 out of the last 13 matches under Henry. That's not a shabby record and does not indicate a team in turmoil. to compare the two is just pointless.
That's why it's unfair to compare their lots to one another. Woodward resigned the England position to focus on the Lions in September 2004. At that point the All Blacks had just finished last in the Tri Nations and were lucky to do that and again the bookies had them neck and neck with the ABs.
Sorry I just don't see having 18 months to prepare a team for the Lions from ground zero as being a significantly easier than preparing the Lions in 8 months with a World Champion team to start with.
Home ground yes, the way injuries broke in the first two tests yes (although had the Lions been good enough for a rubber match things broke back against NZ going into the 3rd test) - but at the outset, no, Henry had an equal or bigger mountain to climb.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Rapido said in B&I Lions 2017:
Even under current season structure; all it would take to free up an extra week for a Lions year is for the 4 home unions to come to an agreement with the 2 leagues to have 1 midweek round at some stage during the season.
Put a midweek round somewhere in the Xmas/NY holiday season.
Job done.
They have big squads, big enough to player League during international windows. They could cope with that.
Yep sounds easy to say. Not all teams could cope well with a midweek match given some have greater depth than others.
The point of the changes to the PRO12 from 2018/19 onwards is the target date is to take matches out of international windows. And for European Cup to be done in Dec and Jan up to quarter-finals if possible by bumping the Six Nations forward a week (or shortening it as the RFU/PRL/LNR want to do).
It's still a power game between English and French clubs and the Unions.
...and the format which, for some stupid reason, tries to emulate the structure of wendyball in a far more physical sport that cant absorb as many short turnaround matches with concurrent competitions
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@Tregaskis Yeah fair point re MacQueen's Wallabies, although ageing and past it's best, it was still good side.
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@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Catogrande said in B&I Lions 2017:
Mate, that is somewhat disingenuous. The time they were appointed bears no comparison to the time they had with their players. Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc but so does every international coach. You just cannot compare coaching a national side to the Lions. Not quite apples and oranges but certainly cookers and eaters.
They without doubt are unique challenges. Each cycle is different. Woodward dwells on the challenges that he believes he faced as is his right, but I disagree with the premise that the All Blacks were the unstoppable juggernaut that they subsequently became as that series began.
When both coaches were appointed the bookmakers and pundits saw this as a very close series - one the Lions would have been favored in on a neutral field. The All Blacks set up really was in that much turmoil, moving onto their third coach in four years, fifth captain in six years. You can't underestimate the work it took to move expectations from there - to what the Lions press seem to concede was one of the better sides of all time in just 18 months.
Woodward saw his job as being relatively easy remember. He even mentions in his article - he had an all reigning, all conquering World Champion English side and they just needed a few Irish and Welsh players to put them over the top. He had the reigns of that English team and torpedoed them following 2003, then poorly integrated the Welsh/Irish contingent.
If we are talking about Hansen vs Gatland this time around I would completely agree though. Hansen has had 14 years of smooth sailing, has been planning for this tour in some capacity for 4 years and aside from a hiccup in Chicago has been invincible for two years now including a World Cup - literally everything is in his favour. This was not the case in 2005.
Well, as I said "'Dear old Ted has his issues alright with players leaving, retiring, loss of form etc ". I acknowledge that Henry had his issues, but his issues were so far away from Woodward's issues. For sure he handled his issues a lot better, but let's remember that Ted had many of the same issues that Woodward did in the Lions tour in 2001 and he didn't come up trumps. Yeah 2-1 is better than 3-zip and the individual matches were a lot closer but that was against an ageing Wallaby side rather than a NZ side that had won 11 out of the last 13 matches under Henry. That's not a shabby record and does not indicate a team in turmoil. to compare the two is just pointless.
....
Sorry I just don't see having 18 months to prepare a team for the Lions from ground zero as being a significantly easier than preparing the Lions in 8 months with a World Champion team to start with....Well the times quoted are not significant as Woodward (or any other Lions coach) does not have 8 months to prepare his squad. He has those 8 months to consider who might be in his squad. The reality is that he has only a few weeks to prepare his squad of players, many of whom have never played together. Henry hardly started at Ground Zero either. he inherited a squad that was already up and running and added to and tinker with that squad.
Any Lions coach has a very short time to sort out a squad of players from different countries, that often play totally different styles. He does not have any input into the strength and conditioning of those players nor does he get the chance have any tactical input until practically the last minute.
if you really think that the jobs of being a National coach and being a Lions coach are in any way comparable you might just look at Woodward's record in each job as an example.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
The next tour is going to be under new global agreement in 2021 against South Africa. Who knows where South African rugby will be at that stage. The revised touring schedule with tours moved to July was immediately gobbled up by the English Premiership clubs saying they were moving their final to the end of June and saying they were still going to start the season in September. As a bone-headed move following at least some element of sensible re-ordering of the global season, this takes some beating. At least, the PRO12 intends to shorten their league season, start later and finish sooner (well so far they've said that, but let's see what the English and French clubs decide to do with the European Cup).
I hadn't heard that mate but it's all too believable. Madess if it happens.
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Visited planet rugby to see the reaction to that long article linked to here today, best post was from an English poster.
"Woodward really should take the psychopath test. I bet he'd find that rather than being a once in a lifetime visonary genius, he's actually sat naked eating shit out of an ice-cream tub in front of his fridge full of fannies."
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Liins team announcement this evening around 9/10pm Irish time apparently.
