B&I Lions 2017
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@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated said in B&I Lions 2017:
Has anyone spotted any stabs at the touring party following the last round?
*****Very, very interesting set up following the Irish victory. Streak aside, on balance I think Ireland have the best claims over the past 6-12 months to dominate this squad and the XV.
English fans may want to hear that, but if these fixtures were structured in a different way and the Italy/Ireland performances were weeks 1 and 2 - I think they get less of a rub going into June.*****
Scotland over-performed in the 6N, Ireland have the English and ABs scalp, England just equalled a world record streak and Gats has to show some loyalty to "his guys". So an interesting selection upcoming.
Even more interesting the Lions squad is probably coached by the 4th best coach of the lot, although still not a poor one but with a questionable back room. In hindsight perhaps reuiniting a Schmidt/Cotter ticket would have me a bit more worried.
wait, what? 18 straight, including a GS and another 6 Nations. 3-0 away to Australia. Beat Aus and South Africa at home. What have the Irish done to rival that?
Last 6 Nations they beat Scotland and Italy, and drew with Wales (at home). The lost the series to South Africa in June. Yes, they beat us, but then we beat them at their place. Win over Aus was good. Then this 6N lost to Scotland, and pumped by Wales.
While they are a good team, and have some handy players that deserve to be in the squad, i find your comment to be waaaay over the top.
Definitely see your point. Just going fixture by fixture through their last year or so I just don't see England as a significantly better side. So many games in the streak they just squeezed out.
I kind of put the England/Aus series and the RSA/Ireland series in the same baskets. You have to give England credit for winning two more tests than Ireland but in all six of those tests could have gone either way. To me there isn't a clear class gap between the two.
Feel like you give Ireland a better mark on the EOYT, although England didn't do much wrong. And for this years Six Nations I just kind of felt Ireland played more minutes of better rugby and at a better level. England played absolute shit for long periods (as did Ireland) Italy was farcial, the Welsh effort was woeful apart from the last 10 minutes. Both meandered against he Frogs. All in all they both were lucky to play 80 minutes of quality rugby and most of that was in the Scotland game in England's case.
Don't feel there is much between them, just feel Ireland have a higher gear when they get their shit together - but won't deny England have developed the ability to grind out wins when they have a sniff in the last 20. If both sides were to tour in June I'd give Ireland the better chance of sneaking a test for sure.
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in B&I Lions 2017:
Is Van der Flier not in the mix? I'll be more than happy if they leave him at home.
He doesn't sound very British so unlikely to travel.
Besides, kiwis would probably protest at yet another Saffa being included in the squad....
😏
As mentioned, I won't be crushed if he's left behind. But I'm not sure if I want it to be for racist reasons or the belief that we have an issue with South African Irishmen
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@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in B&I Lions 2017:
Is Van der Flier not in the mix? I'll be more than happy if they leave him at home.
He doesn't sound very British so unlikely to travel.
Besides, kiwis would probably protest at yet another Saffa being included in the squad....
😏
Not a Saffa, but Irish with Dutch ancestry. His paternal grandparents moved from the Netherlands to Ireland in the 1950s.
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@rotated I can understand that view, it's certainly a valid argument. I just find the Irish style of play they revert to very quickly to be very limited (the Chicago game seems to be an anomaly) , and England to have more facets to their play. Grinding out wins when you're not playing well is not a bad thing.
I think it's testament to England's improved mental strength that i fully expected them to get up and win that game on the weekend, despite being pretty ordinary all game.
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@mariner4life said in B&I Lions 2017:
@rotated I can understand that view, it's certainly a valid argument. I just find the Irish style of play they revert to very quickly to be very limited (the Chicago game seems to be an anomaly) , and England to have more facets to their play. Grinding out wins when you're not playing well is not a bad thing.
I think it's testament to England's improved mental strength that i fully expected them to get up and win that game on the weekend, despite being pretty ordinary all game.
I disagree on the facets of play assessment, I think Ireland are able to play at more tempos and have a better counter attack game than England - but perhaps are more easily stifled.
Like you say it's a bit of a conundrum, I give England all the credit in the world for grinding out these wins - they have some seriously improved mental skills to keep grinding out these wins. But the fact they keep needing to do this every week says to me they haven't put daylight between them and the pack.
After considering what you said this English side is very 00-02 Wallabyish (obviously without the reputation a RWC win brings before it). As an AB fan it very tough to say they were comprehensively the best side in the world or even a better side than us - but fuck me they kept the silverware.
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end of the day , if you are selecting, you have to put aside where they come from and just pick the best players for each position ,
Once you start worrying about where they come from I think you are in trouble
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@kiwiinmelb said in B&I Lions 2017:
end of the day , if you are selecting, you have to put aside where they come from and just pick the best players for each position ,
Once you start worrying about where they come from I think you are in trouble
Kind of agree with you but there is also the aspect of key combos e.g. the 8,9,10 if playing a tight game or the 10,12 if looking to attack. The 12,13 combo has to come into consideration for defensive organisation as well.
Not saying that you have to make matches there but it would come into your thinking even if just regarding the compatibility of play.
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
@kiwiinmelb said in B&I Lions 2017:
end of the day , if you are selecting, you have to put aside where they come from and just pick the best players for each position ,
Once you start worrying about where they come from I think you are in trouble
Kind of agree with you but there is also the aspect of key combos e.g. the 8,9,10 if playing a tight game or the 10,12 if looking to attack. The 12,13 combo has to come into consideration for defensive organisation as well.
Not saying that you have to make matches there but it would come into your thinking even if just regarding the compatibility of play.
Yep agree with that ,
I was more referring to trying to pick the right numbers from each team to keep people happy , or the thinking England have been the best team so they should have the most players etc,
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Yeah it's very difficult gelling a Lions squad and team. Often with rugby it is the whole rather than the sum of the parts that is the thing. Add to that the setting aside of ancient rivalries and nationalistic pride and you have quite a problem.
Whilst England have ben the most successful over the last year and a bit, I feel that they are very much an example of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. Yeah we do have some stand out players but not that many. Take Mike Brown, who has been and ever present has rarely let us down (albeit his game is seemingly going backwards atm) but no-one has mentioned him as a Lions contender and I would agree with that - also I don't see him as being a "good" tourist. Too much Mr Angry.
Ireland and Wales will both have a significant number of players going and hopefully Scotland will have decent representation as well, although injuries may scotch that (pun intended).
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@Stargazer said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Pot-Hale said in B&I Lions 2017:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in B&I Lions 2017:
Is Van der Flier not in the mix? I'll be more than happy if they leave him at home.
He doesn't sound very British so unlikely to travel.
Besides, kiwis would probably protest at yet another Saffa being included in the squad....
😏
Not a Saffa, but Irish with Dutch ancestry. His paternal grandparents moved from the Netherlands to Ireland in the 1950s.
Yes I know this.
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@Pot-Hale Fairly mediocre bait, but you got a bite nonetheless. Good skills man.
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@Crucial said in B&I Lions 2017:
What's the reluctance to play VdF?
He looks like he brings an element of dynamics that should be encouragedGood question. I think his injury absence has removed him from people's thinking but he's a genuine 7 and for a young Irish player has accomplished a lot. Given the comparative backrow depth for the Lions he may not make it. Instead he'll have to rip it up in USA and Japan during the summer, although Dan Leavy is gunning for him.
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@Stargazer No I mean an official one. That has a Lions crest but fake NZ logos.
