Azzuri v Bokke
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South Africa being shit isn't good for us either. The Rugby Championship already is lacking a bit of luster given we have won it in every year it has actually meant something. South Africa being perennially poor is just not going to be a good thing. I hope it doesn't happen.
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@No-Quarter said in Azzuri v Bokke:
That's one of the stupidest comics I've seen. Talk about over simplifying the issues. Yeah the racist systems that were in place in the past we reprehensible, but retarded ideas like quota systems are a fucking cancerous way of trying to restore equality. All you can do is provide equality of opportunity and the ability for everyone to take responsibility for their own lives. If you take that responsibility away with handouts and quota systems or any other dumb ideas nothing ever improves and you will continue to have a very divided country.
yeah, except equality of opportunity directly following oppression is a false premise.
look at the life outcomes for poor, uneducated white people - your trailer trash or whatever. they have equality of opportunity, but the chances of cletus becoming an astronaut are fuck all.
so if you force poverty and lack of education on everyone who isn't white for generations, then you are responsible for those outcomes. saying 'yeah she's all good now mate, everyone's even - what's wrong with ya, take some responsibility for your lives.'' is a crock. -
A generation has grown up since Mandela assumed power. The question that necessarily follows is when do you acknowledge that quotas are no longer necessary? How do you recognise that such policies are no longer required?
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@antipodean yep absolutely: implementation details and time-frames are all up for debate and a complex thing. my point is really just that if you have a big fucking mess, then trying to do something to fix it is a good idea.
also that the boks' losses are not due to quotas, because they're not. the decline in bok rugby has far more to do with them spending the last decade insisting that they keep playing shit 10 man rugby and trying to outmuscle everyone, having shit coaches, picking past-it white guys and having guys leave for money - rather than a very few marginal coloured selections.
even if you accept the (i think blatantly) false premise that the quotas are the reason, then it is apartheid that has fucked the boks, not PC gone mad. -
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@reprobate
I don't disagree with extra money/resources being put into the lower levels in terms of coaching and development. And maybe even a quota system at the lower levels.But I don't think there should be any quota system beyond Super or Curry Cup level.- i.e for internationals
Once you reach here, everyone has equality of opportunity.
Once you reach that, even if it may be on the back of a quota (or not), everyone is equal.
There should absolutely not be a quota system to select for the Boks. None. -
@reprobate said in Azzuri v Bokke:
@No-Quarter said in Azzuri v Bokke:
That's one of the stupidest comics I've seen. Talk about over simplifying the issues. Yeah the racist systems that were in place in the past we reprehensible, but retarded ideas like quota systems are a fucking cancerous way of trying to restore equality. All you can do is provide equality of opportunity and the ability for everyone to take responsibility for their own lives. If you take that responsibility away with handouts and quota systems or any other dumb ideas nothing ever improves and you will continue to have a very divided country.
yeah, except equality of opportunity directly following oppression is a false premise.
look at the life outcomes for poor, uneducated white people - your trailer trash or whatever. they have equality of opportunity, but the chances of cletus becoming an astronaut are fuck all.
so if you force poverty and lack of education on everyone who isn't white for generations, then you are responsible for those outcomes. saying 'yeah she's all good now mate, everyone's even - what's wrong with ya, take some responsibility for your lives.'' is a crock.And how does that relate to a rugby side?
I'm all for quotas, fast tracking etc. in a post apartheid world when concerning jobs, university positions, schools etc. But again, this is a bloody rugby side and a sport that the vast majority of black South Africans couldn't give a shit about. I don't see how selecting fringe players and inexperienced coaches is helping anyone or growing the game among the black population. You don't learn on the job in international rugby if you're not ready, you get torn apart.
Another thing is that if a white person misses out on a job to a black person because of quotas he can at least get another job or pursue another career. What do you do if you don't get selected for the Boks because of your skin colour?. Not many options available to you then. Well actually there are. You leave the country.
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@antipodean said in Azzuri v Bokke:
A generation has grown up since Mandela assumed power. The
That is a gripe a lot of people share. Targets have not been set, which means that goal posts have constantly been shifted.
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@Frank said in Azzuri v Bokke:
there is equal opportunity for blacks and whites.
Both have access to the same Super coach, nutrition experts, physios etc.
How are they disadvantaged at this level in terms of equality of opportunity?Apparently the coach/selectors do not give black players a chance, and will pick a white player over a black player if they are on par.
Saw this post on rugby365 which hits the nail on the head IMO:
Sad state of affairs in SA Rugby. There are fundamentals that need addressing, and it starts at the top.
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SARFU does not have the money to get the best coaches, or keep the top players in SA.
Lets ask why?
I believe that the answer is 2 x fold?
Firstly, they are too scared to stop funding the unions who are clearly underperforming.
Secondly, they do not want they best coaches available...they want the best coaches who will adhere to their transformation plan, and will accept not being in control of the ship. Hence you will only attract A.C. type coaches who blindly say yes to SARFU, and critically, are not set KPI's on winning rugby, but rather on transformation goals. -
Professional rugby is not based on merit, neither is selection policy.
Lets ask why?
The Politicians believe that addressing Apartheid's wrongs, are to do it in reverse. This happens in all government enterprises, and I would suggest that the state of corruption, the currency volatility and the potential ratings downgrade are all the 'benefits' of BBEEE. -
Player drain abroad.
Lets ask why?
Its not just money, but a great young 24 year old with 6-8 years of professional service ahead of him, will not want to be coached by a 30 year old with no coaching experience who quite frankly, he does not respect. This will continue to erode the player base in SA. More and more young players from Craven week will be welcomed by professional Aussie / Kiwi / European feeder clubs due to the professional set up, and ability to secure a financial future from rugby by being well coached. -
Coaching drain abroad.
Lets ask why?
Why on earth would Brendan Venter lead the SA indaba, and then a few months later, assist Italy coach to beat SA for the first time ever? Why on earth would White, Mallet, Meyer, De Villiers etc etc, not be involved in any way in SA rugby going forward? Simply, they are not wanted, even though they are probably still the most experienced, and smart coaches SA have produced. Simply, they don't believe in the new system really, and have no desire to help a sinking ship, cause under the conditions imposed by SARFU, I don't believe that even they think SA can be a force anymore.
The problem is systemic, and I predicted at the start of the year, that we will be lucky to finish the world at number 6 in the IRB rankings once I read the transformation charter, and I saw the coaching plans, and the strategic initiative published on SARFU website that says one of A.C's KPI's are to groom Mzwandile Stick to be the next SA coach.
NOTHING IN SARFU IS BASED ON MERIT AND BEING NUMBER 1.
NOTHING IN THE SARFU STRATEGIC PLAN IS BASED ON IRB RANKINGS AND BEING NUMBER 1.With that said, how can people be surprised to see SA failing? Quite frankly, our performance is in line with the professionalism and coaching set up.
Talented players in a weak set up who are badly coached will not beat marginally less talented players in a professional set up who are excellently drilled!
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@PN Totally agree, Coetzee was not even allowed to select his own coaches, what makes this worse is the fact that none of the coaches he inherited has excelled at SR level. The mood in SA is very somber, and the tiff currently between SARU and Duane Vermeleun speaks of volumes of where SA rugby is at the moment. SARU will have to stick with Coetzee though, as his role is currently a poisoned chalice that hardly anyone in the foreseeable future would like to inherit.
But in all honesty SA rugby is in a shambles and until SARU admits this and takes the responsibility to transform SA rugby, this will be a very long road ahead i'm afraid. -
@reprobate said in Azzuri v Bokke:
@No-Quarter said in Azzuri v Bokke:
That's one of the stupidest comics I've seen. Talk about over simplifying the issues. Yeah the racist systems that were in place in the past we reprehensible, but retarded ideas like quota systems are a fucking cancerous way of trying to restore equality. All you can do is provide equality of opportunity and the ability for everyone to take responsibility for their own lives. If you take that responsibility away with handouts and quota systems or any other dumb ideas nothing ever improves and you will continue to have a very divided country.
yeah, except equality of opportunity directly following oppression is a false premise.
look at the life outcomes for poor, uneducated white people - your trailer trash or whatever. they have equality of opportunity, but the chances of cletus becoming an astronaut are fuck all.
so if you force poverty and lack of education on everyone who isn't white for generations, then you are responsible for those outcomes. saying 'yeah she's all good now mate, everyone's even - what's wrong with ya, take some responsibility for your lives.'' is a crock.Great example about Cletus. What you're talking about is the divide between rich and poor, not race.
I fully understand that the systemic racism that existed in the past has left black people overepresented in the poorest parts of the population. But not all black people are poor, and not all white people are rich. So any policy based on race is both flawed and divisive. The comic you posted uses the idiotic term "reverse racism". Reverse racism is not a thing. There is just racism. When you implement a quota system, you are trying to fix racism with racism. Surely it is obvious that that is not a good idea.
What you appear to be gunning for is a better balance between how many black people are poor and how many white people are poor. By ignoring poor white people you appear to want white people to stay poor to "even things up". Which is ridiculous. What governments should be doing is implementing policies that allow people living in poverty (don't like that word) to lift themselves out to enable a better quality of life. They do that then both poor black and white people will benefit.
And those policies should never be handouts or quota systems that take away people's responsibility for their own lives. The only way a poor person is going to get out of poverty is if they work hard to better their position. That's the harsh reality. Handouts don't work - history tells us that in no uncertain terms.
And quota systems only divide people more. They tell white people that they won't be selected because of the colour of their skin (racism), and they tell black people that they are inferior and will only be successful if there are systems in place to give them a leg up. Which is a fucking terrible message to send - I don't think there would be a single black player that would want to make the Boks for any other reason than merit based on their ability.
Closer to home my wife is black and spent most of her childhood in poverty. And when I say poverty I mean abject poverty, not the "poverty" we have in NZ where the definition seems to change depending on the political agenda.
And you know what, she is sick to fucking death of left wing idiots telling her how oppressed she is, and how the world is racist and against her and she has no chance of succeeding becuase of her skin colour unless she gets a leg up from some stupid system designed to benefit "people like her". It was only when she broke herself out of that victimhood mentality that she has been successful - a double degree in Law and Business and working her dream job. Did her skin colour impede her from doing that? Like fuck it did. She worked her fucking ass off and was rewarded for it.
Taking personal responsiblity for improving your life is not a crock, it's reality.
I'm happy for governments to implement policies to help poor people improve their situation, provided it is aimed at getting them into education and paid employment. But any policy based on race is 100% counter-productive and only divides people further. That should be obvious.
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@PN great post, thanks for sharing your insights. Paints a pretty awful picture of what is going on in SA rugby at the moment. Very sad to see.
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Quotas don't seem to help the people they are supposed to help. Here is Brian Mujati explaining why he left SA rugby.
People know that some selections have an asterisk next to their name.. its not good for the morale of the team and some players that might be there on merit question their own selectionhttp://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Quota-issue-drove-Brian-Mujati-away-20130423
"We played against Scotland, Bismarck du Plessis got injured in the first minute and I played the rest of the match," he told the Daily Mail's website. "We won, then our last Test of the tour was against England. On the Monday, I came down to breakfast and found out they had flown in Jannie du Plessis from South Africa. I thought, 'All right, he is here as cover', but in training Jannie was doing all the drills, then they announced the team and Jannie was starting. I felt really let down. "South Africa pick guys because of their race, because they’ve got to have two or three black guys in the squad. It became clear I was one of those selections. I called my agent and said I wanted to leave.
