Black Caps v Pakistan
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@MN5 Bracewell? He averages about 45 since that one great test (and what a test it was). Wagner is the stock bowler we need. Southee? come on, "at his best" and "over the last couple of years" are a world apart.
Look, i understand your argument (now that you have moved the goalposts) and it's not without merit, i just think we need a spinner if we are to be successful going forward. And if it's a choice of a shit 4th seamer, or a shit spinner, i'll take the spinner because he might grow in to something, whereas i know what Bracewell is, or is not, capable of.
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@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 if we had 4 good seamers i would probably agree with you, but we don't. And that is short term thinking as it hardly sets us up to play anywhere but in NZ, and maybe England.
You don't rate a combo of Boult, Southee, Wagner and Bracewell at their best ? ( fair enough, chances of that happening at once is remote.....but this last couple of weeks has proved anything is fucken possible in the world )
But anyway you say we don't have four good seamers, I counter that with we don't have one good spinner.
mmm if we went into a test match with that I know I'd be holding my breath for long periods of time....
Plus that's a very long tail on top of a jittery middle order.
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@reprobate but he's played enough tests for us to judge him on that average alone
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@ACT-Crusader said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 if we had 4 good seamers i would probably agree with you, but we don't. And that is short term thinking as it hardly sets us up to play anywhere but in NZ, and maybe England.
You don't rate a combo of Boult, Southee, Wagner and Bracewell at their best ? ( fair enough, chances of that happening at once is remote.....but this last couple of weeks has proved anything is fucken possible in the world )
But anyway you say we don't have four good seamers, I counter that with we don't have one good spinner.
mmm if we went into a test match with that I know I'd be holding my breath for long periods of time....
Plus that's a very long tail on top of a jittery middle order.
Is it ? I guess all our shit spinners can at least hold a bat.
....not to mention Bracewell is an "all rounder"......we're sweet.
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@mariner4life fair enough, but then santner has played enough first class games to suggest that is representative too.
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@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
Guptil to get the arse, replaced by Raval.
Astle comes in for Satnav.
Plunket Shield, 2016/17 batting highest career batting average Records | ESPNcricinfo
Find Plunket Shield, 2016/17 batting highest career batting average records and stats on ESPNcricinfo. Check batting highest career batting average stats of Plunket Shield, 2016/17.
Guppy's time had run out, but this set of stats show why it's a worry.
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@mariner4life said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 Bracewell? He averages about 45 since that one great test (and what a test it was). Wagner is the stock bowler we need. Southee? come on, "at his best" and "over the last couple of years" are a world apart.
Look, i understand your argument (now that you have moved the goalposts) and it's not without merit, i just think we need a spinner if we are to be successful going forward. And if it's a choice of a shit 4th seamer, or a shit spinner, i'll take the spinner because he might grow in to something, whereas i know what Bracewell is, or is not, capable of.
Bracewell is a bit of a funny one, I still fondly recall his efforts in Hobart ( I was on a rare sick day from work so watched it all from the couch ). I think in terms of cricket if you actually see the spell or innings you subconsciously rate it that much better than if you hear about it ? ( as opposed to checking cricinfo the next morning and hearing such and such took loads of wickets or got lots of runs in a test overseas )
but you're right, since then he's done fuck all apart from "bowl well without reward" which is one of my most hated cricketing clichés.
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good to see astle there, all the other blokes got a go and failed (as astle did previously), so why not give him another chance. turns it a fair whack, and can bat. haven't seen much of his work since being dropped but he has been taking wickets - hopefully he has tightened up, as the wicket balls were always there, just too inconsistent.
raval for guppy, yeah fair enough though i doubt it makes much difference.
de grandhomme though? did not see that coming.rough leaving ronchi out too i reckon, though i won't get much support for that opinion here.
New Zealand squad Kane Williamson (capt), Todd Astle, Trent Boult, Colin de Grandhomme, Matt Henry, Tom Latham, Henry Nicholls, Jimmy Neesham, Jeet Raval, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, Neil Wagner, BJ Watling
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@reprobate said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
de grandhomme though? did not see that coming.
Nor me. If we were playing T20 I could see a case for it, but test cricket?
I guess he's just racked up his highest first class score 144*, but doesn't that just make him a poor man's Neesham or Anderson?
Don't follow it at all?
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@reprobate Astle only got one test so didn't really get much of a go previously. Like you am happy to see him get another crack in Santners absence.
Probably tough on Ronchi given he was one of our better players in India but he's not going to be around much longer and we need to bring some younger guys into the squad for our home games.
Guppy's axing is completely expected but I'm still a bit sad about it, the bloke has the talent but just doesn't seem to be able to perform at test level.
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@No-Quarter yeah, i know ronchi is old, but they've picked a 30 year old all-rounder to debut - so i don't think that's the logic.
not a contentious decision at all though really, only one keeper for a home series. feel for him after being one of our better performers, and as you say, guppy. can't help but feel he just needs that one breakout performance, but he's had his chances. i'd have more confidence in guppy in the middle order than de grandhomme, but hopefully he'll prove me wrong. -
@Chris-B. bit left-field eh. i don't really remember his bowling to be honest, just the big hitting. first class stats are comparable to neesh so hopefully he goes well.
astle's the big hope though, we really need one of those spinners to make that spot their own.
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Don't rate Todd Astle's bowling tbh as he is far too slow through the air to be effective at test level. Still, he's played well in domestic cricket for a few seasons now so good on him for fighting hard to get another go.
Didn't see the De Grandhomme seection coming despite being a big fan of his. The guy is a beautiful natural timer of the ball and certainly wouldn't look out of place if given a go. His bowling is very similar to Grant Elliott/Jacob Oram where he bowls in the early to mid 120s and relies heavily on changes of pace. Still very happy to see him given a spot in the squad.
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@African-Monkey yeah that's how i see colin too - pretty much has to make it as a batsman because that sort of bowling is only infrequently useful in tests.
i was kinda hoping astle was bowling quicker these days too - too easy to use your feet against loopy stuff and less room for error. still, he's taken a lot more wickets than santner at a much better average and strike rate. -
It will be an adjustment for us fans I guess not seeing Guppy out there in the middle and us holding our breath to see if he can get past 30.
Some of the inclusions are unexpected. I know there is a bit of love for Astle and I don't mind him, but there are big question marks about whether he's test level. Does he have the temperament?
It's obvious we are really searching for answers.
I always go into any test match with a bit of optimism no matter where we are at or our last performance and whilst I'd love a test victory, I'm really just wanting to see Boult and Taylor return to the sort of form that has them talked about in the top 5 in the world.
