Black Caps v Pakistan
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@mariner4life said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 you know you're the only one saying that right? You rubbish Santner because he's not Warne/Murali, then say we need to stop obsessing about having someone as good as Warne/Murali.
I don't need Warne, i would be happy with Nathan Lyon for christ's sake. Santner might be alright, but i think he's out? Craig is fucking terrible. Sodhi far too loose. Even on a seamer i still think you need a spin bowler, and i am loath to require our best bat and skipper to also carry a shit load of 4th inning overs.
Well you said Santner had a "good" tour of India which in itself is an interesting call.
52 runs per wicket I think he got ? how's that any better than Sodhi or Craig ?
He seems to have potential with the bat granted but are we really at the stage where it's a case of "chuck some overs down and hope for the best?"
There's no rule that a team HAS to have a designated spinner. DV was an automatic selection. None of these guys have shown anything close to what he did.
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@MN5 um, no shit? You started this by replying to my comment that we had to find a spinner. If we had one already, we wouldn't have to look would we.
I may have slightly overstated his tour of India, but i heard more than one indian commentator who was reasonably impressed with him despite his figures. He's far from the finished article, but shows promise. But he's out. So we are still looking.
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Just looked at the stats for the Indian test series. He took 10 wickets at 52, equal top wicket taker with Boult (who averaged 33).
Craig took 2 @ 70
Sodhi took 3 @ 50
Patel took 6 @ 49 -
All I'm saying is Craig = shit....and injured
Sodhi = slightly above Craig, not sure of his health
Patel = maybe a slight notch above again....
Santner = possibly the best of them all....which is moot as he is injuredA combination of all four of them at various times got the Black Caps five test losses in a row.
Again, no set rule that a team HAS to have a spinner, none of these guys exactly inspire confidence so if there's someone potentially better plugging away in NZ domestic cricket then let's see him.....if not then why not go in with four seam bowlers ? Wagner and Bracewell in particular don't exactly shirk work.
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@MN5 if we had 4 good seamers i would probably agree with you, but we don't. And that is short term thinking as it hardly sets us up to play anywhere but in NZ, and maybe England.
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@mariner4life said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 if we had 4 good seamers i would probably agree with you, but we don't. And that is short term thinking as it hardly sets us up to play anywhere but in NZ, and maybe England.
You don't rate a combo of Boult, Southee, Wagner and Bracewell at their best ? ( fair enough, chances of that happening at once is remote.....but this last couple of weeks has proved anything is fucken possible in the world )
But anyway you say we don't have four good seamers, I counter that with we don't have one good spinner.
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@MN5 Bracewell? He averages about 45 since that one great test (and what a test it was). Wagner is the stock bowler we need. Southee? come on, "at his best" and "over the last couple of years" are a world apart.
Look, i understand your argument (now that you have moved the goalposts) and it's not without merit, i just think we need a spinner if we are to be successful going forward. And if it's a choice of a shit 4th seamer, or a shit spinner, i'll take the spinner because he might grow in to something, whereas i know what Bracewell is, or is not, capable of.
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@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 if we had 4 good seamers i would probably agree with you, but we don't. And that is short term thinking as it hardly sets us up to play anywhere but in NZ, and maybe England.
You don't rate a combo of Boult, Southee, Wagner and Bracewell at their best ? ( fair enough, chances of that happening at once is remote.....but this last couple of weeks has proved anything is fucken possible in the world )
But anyway you say we don't have four good seamers, I counter that with we don't have one good spinner.
mmm if we went into a test match with that I know I'd be holding my breath for long periods of time....
Plus that's a very long tail on top of a jittery middle order.
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@reprobate but he's played enough tests for us to judge him on that average alone
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@ACT-Crusader said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@mariner4life said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 if we had 4 good seamers i would probably agree with you, but we don't. And that is short term thinking as it hardly sets us up to play anywhere but in NZ, and maybe England.
You don't rate a combo of Boult, Southee, Wagner and Bracewell at their best ? ( fair enough, chances of that happening at once is remote.....but this last couple of weeks has proved anything is fucken possible in the world )
But anyway you say we don't have four good seamers, I counter that with we don't have one good spinner.
mmm if we went into a test match with that I know I'd be holding my breath for long periods of time....
Plus that's a very long tail on top of a jittery middle order.
Is it ? I guess all our shit spinners can at least hold a bat.
....not to mention Bracewell is an "all rounder"......we're sweet.
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@mariner4life fair enough, but then santner has played enough first class games to suggest that is representative too.
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@Gunner said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
Guptil to get the arse, replaced by Raval.
Astle comes in for Satnav.
Plunket Shield, 2016/17 batting highest career batting average Records | ESPNcricinfo
Find Plunket Shield, 2016/17 batting highest career batting average records and stats on ESPNcricinfo. Check batting highest career batting average stats of Plunket Shield, 2016/17.
Guppy's time had run out, but this set of stats show why it's a worry.
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@mariner4life said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 Bracewell? He averages about 45 since that one great test (and what a test it was). Wagner is the stock bowler we need. Southee? come on, "at his best" and "over the last couple of years" are a world apart.
Look, i understand your argument (now that you have moved the goalposts) and it's not without merit, i just think we need a spinner if we are to be successful going forward. And if it's a choice of a shit 4th seamer, or a shit spinner, i'll take the spinner because he might grow in to something, whereas i know what Bracewell is, or is not, capable of.
Bracewell is a bit of a funny one, I still fondly recall his efforts in Hobart ( I was on a rare sick day from work so watched it all from the couch ). I think in terms of cricket if you actually see the spell or innings you subconsciously rate it that much better than if you hear about it ? ( as opposed to checking cricinfo the next morning and hearing such and such took loads of wickets or got lots of runs in a test overseas )
but you're right, since then he's done fuck all apart from "bowl well without reward" which is one of my most hated cricketing clichés.
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good to see astle there, all the other blokes got a go and failed (as astle did previously), so why not give him another chance. turns it a fair whack, and can bat. haven't seen much of his work since being dropped but he has been taking wickets - hopefully he has tightened up, as the wicket balls were always there, just too inconsistent.
raval for guppy, yeah fair enough though i doubt it makes much difference.
de grandhomme though? did not see that coming.rough leaving ronchi out too i reckon, though i won't get much support for that opinion here.
New Zealand squad Kane Williamson (capt), Todd Astle, Trent Boult, Colin de Grandhomme, Matt Henry, Tom Latham, Henry Nicholls, Jimmy Neesham, Jeet Raval, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, Neil Wagner, BJ Watling
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@reprobate said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
de grandhomme though? did not see that coming.
Nor me. If we were playing T20 I could see a case for it, but test cricket?
I guess he's just racked up his highest first class score 144*, but doesn't that just make him a poor man's Neesham or Anderson?
Don't follow it at all?
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@reprobate Astle only got one test so didn't really get much of a go previously. Like you am happy to see him get another crack in Santners absence.
Probably tough on Ronchi given he was one of our better players in India but he's not going to be around much longer and we need to bring some younger guys into the squad for our home games.
Guppy's axing is completely expected but I'm still a bit sad about it, the bloke has the talent but just doesn't seem to be able to perform at test level.
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@No-Quarter yeah, i know ronchi is old, but they've picked a 30 year old all-rounder to debut - so i don't think that's the logic.
not a contentious decision at all though really, only one keeper for a home series. feel for him after being one of our better performers, and as you say, guppy. can't help but feel he just needs that one breakout performance, but he's had his chances. i'd have more confidence in guppy in the middle order than de grandhomme, but hopefully he'll prove me wrong.
