Theory about historically successful teams
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@dogmeat said in Theory about historically successful teams:
@mariner4life they could also get the shits because we call them things like "lesser nations"
And the thing where "you only beat us because we played shit, bro!"
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@NTA said in Theory about historically successful teams:
And the thing where "you only beat us because we played shit, bro!"
Thankfully we haven't heard that one for a while now.....
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@dogmeat said in Theory about historically successful teams:
@mariner4life they could also get the shits because we call them things like "lesser nations"
the numbers don't lie brah
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@NTA said in Theory about historically successful teams:
@dogmeat said in Theory about historically successful teams:
@mariner4life they could also get the shits because we call them things like "lesser nations"
And the thing where "you only beat us because we played shit, bro!"
Not to mention "You only got within 10 points of us coz we played shit!"
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@Milk said in Theory about historically successful teams:
What I find interesting is how many of these offences are exaggerated in my opinion.
The All Blacks have and always will be accused of being overly cynical. In rugby the winning team is better at pushing the envelope, so I can understand the criticism. I used to think the same about George Smith when he was winning against us. Cozy relationships with the refs go hand in hand that point.
The cameras don't lie, and there are certainly instances of All Blacks committing foul play. I'd argue it's no worse than other teams, but that's neither here nor there.
However, this lack of humility is manufactured as far as I'm concerned. As fans we're terribly self-righteous and thin-skinned, but I'm very proud of how the All Blacks conduct themselves. I remember Kafe's rant about the lack of humility from the ABs and he played an interview from Retallick and Cane to prove it, and I couldn't have disagreed more with his description. This Aaron Smith thing has been blown way out of proportion. He screwed up, but still: "Sports star cheats on partner. Has quickie in bathroom"... shock horror! I thought that was one of the perks of being a rugby star in NZ.
I guess it build's on OP's point that everyone wants to bring the team at the top down to earth, either by their actual infractions, exaggeration or fabrication.
As a New Englander now I have plenty of self-righteous indignation about deflategate too.
A good mate of mine (Australian, half Italian) met a Kiwi girl in London and they moved to NZ a few years back. He was pretty "typical" with regard to the abs, i.e. a dickhead. But since moving to Auckland his view has changed completely. I visited him there last year and he had nothing but praise for them. He couldn't believe that a group of guys who are worshipped in such a small country could remain so humble and grounded. He contrasted this with certain Wallabies and of course the greasy tools who play (or rather dive) for Italy in soccer.
It was really nice of him to say that because while I totally agree that some NZ fans can be tossers, the abs themselves are generally a sound group of guys who certainly don't deserve the vitriol thrown at them by certain people.
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The thing about the AB's is also about the internal marketing.
Compare the percentage of school kids who have actually met an All Black to Austrlians that have met a Wallaby / Baggy Green or Poms who have met a football player and I'm sure the number would hugely different. AFL I suspect may be similar to the AB's in that regard.
English rugby is probably quite good in that department if you only count private schools with shockingly high fees.
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@MajorRage said in Theory about historically successful teams:
The thing about the AB's is also about the internal marketing.
Compare the percentage of school kids who have actually met an All Black to Austrlians that have met a Wallaby / Baggy Green
Excellent point - you have to live in a very small part of Sydney to even clap eyes on a Wallaby down the street. They seem to get to schools rarely, though that was changing under McKenzie with the country tours etc.
But its not the big name blokes a lot of the time. Which is not to say they don't do it:
http://www.rugby.com.au/videos/2016/10/27/04/00/wallabies-visit-schools
But when you're the minority sport in the nation its just less frequent. Throw in the travel that the average Super Rugby Wallaby does compared to an AFL* / NRL* player and its like sighting a unicorn.
- Obviously there is a fairly hefty peptides / three-strikes drug policy / spouse-beating schedule to keep up. But that's just up the road, not in another whole country!
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It's a natural thing. Any team that wins with the consistency that the All Blacks do will cop a lot of people wanting them to lose. NZ are far from alone in this, it's in every sport. The slight difference is that there are not that many major sports where one team has been so dominant, so you guys are bound to cop it more.
I too, do not get the arrogance thing about the team, some fans for sure, but then again, that's usual. The thing that would grate for me is the repetitive unfounded accusations that seem to become entrenched - poaching, cheating influencing refs.
And on that note I shall leave you with a quote from this thread:-
"English rugby is probably quite good in that department if you only count private schools with shockingly high fees." -
@akan004 said in Theory about historically successful teams:
AB fans are far from perfect. We tend to be dismissive of other teams, we often overrate how good we are and can come across as being incredibly arrogant at times.
As for opposition fans, they seem to think that it's perfectly ok to constantly throw accusations of the ABs cheating, being given the rub of the green from the refs and the arrogance displayed by the team etc and not expect retaliation. As other have said, these claims are almost always unfounded. But what is even more annoying is when kiwis then go in to bat for the ABs, we are accused of being bad winners etc. The old "can't you just enjoy supporting this great team instead of..." line is a favourite of a non AB supporter. So essentially it's ok for them to bash the ABs but we are not allowed to defend them.
I think if you asked All Blacks fans 18 games ago, most of us would have expected us to lose in the next 18 games. I think you could argue our success has taken a lot of our fans by surprise. I think we do tend to lack knowledge about Northern Hemisphere rugby but then again a lot of us don't have the Rugby Channel.
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@Catogrande Am I wrong though Catogrande? Would it be fair to say that the posh english schools have much better access to the English rugby team than your average local state school?
Happy to take back if so - it may be an incorrect perception, which can be corrected on no problems.
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@MajorRage The perception is really quite wrong MR, there is a lot of access to the England squad for schools and junior rugby, with many initiatives all over the country providing participation between youngsters and the squad. Schools can be a little problematic in that it is down to the staff of the school to allow or encourage any interaction. It is highly likely that in percentage terms there is a far greater element of public schools (actually these are the private schools for those who do not understand the idiosyncracies of English schooling) that will facilitate any participation, but this is not confined to rugby or even to sport in general.
A typical illustration of this concerned a guy I met whilst out on the lash. He is a professor of forensic science and he gives freely of his time to schools. He has a few presentations of about an hour each that are very interesting, particularly to early teenagers. All sorts of criminal forensics, gory pictures and lurid stories but all with a scientific base. He offered to do one or more of these for my daughter's school. I contacted the head of science who didn't bother to reply, I then contacted the Headmaster and he promised to get a reply to me and the head of science basically said there was no room in the school calendar (this without knowing anything about the timings being offered - which were totally flexible). My daughter had talked to a load of her school mates who were really keen but no luck. I told the professor this and he said that sadly this was the reaction from the majority of state schools whereas the majority of the public schools were very supportive.
So, it is easy to see how such a perception sticks.
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By Toby Tancred In my house, all the important decisions are made at the family dinner table. So a few weeks ago, I asked my...
Deans had the right idea
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@Catogrande Thanks Cato, consider myself educated. Interesting p.o.v you have there, given that i'm out to put my 5 year old into the UK education systems and are tossing up between State & Public.
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@MajorRage It would be helpful if either choice would guarantee a good education but alas that is not the case. It is very much down to the individual schools and the catchment area/demographics. Some state schools are brilliant but many are not. Public schools very much dependent upon the school head. One of the major public schools was described thus to me.
The students graduate with a slightly below average education but an above average sense of their own worth.
Research is king mate.
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@Catogrande Shit-Oh-Dear.
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@MajorRage Don't be too downhearted mate. As long as you and Mrs MR put in a shift each week you should be able to unlearn your nipper of some of the crap that gets fed to them.
Here's a really special case at my kids' senior school (up to GCSE) from the science teacher - "There is enough energy in a ham sandwich to allow a person to climb Mt Everest"!
Said "science" teacher also put a scare into the kids about bird flu telling the class that she had bought some tamiflu on the internet and that it is running out because the Government was stockpiling it for "essential occupations".
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@barbarian said in Theory about historically successful teams:
So the ABs are a historically successful team, and have been for some time. ...
And now it seems they have attracted the scorn of pundits and fans around the world. ... their nefarious tactics (eye gouging, niggle off the ball, constantly infringing), their cozy relationship with referees, issues with 'attitude' and 'entitlement' (eg shagging birds in disabled toilets), and a general longing from most fans that they will flat out lose.
Here is my theory, and maybe it's stating the bleeding obvious... this treatment isn't so much to do with the ABs, in fact it happens to most, if not all, historically successful teams.
Admittedly I don't have a huge number of examples to support this, but here are a few off the top of my head:
Australian cricket team of the early 2000s - set the record for consecutive test wins, and the 'hard edge' they were lauded for early in Steve Waugh's reign became a lightning rod for criticism. They attracted a pretty solid opposition around the world for boorish tactics (esp from Hayden, McGrath, Warne, Ponting, Waugh).
...I see it all in fairly simple terms - it is child-like jealousy which deserves to be ignored.
When your favority fave isn't good enough, when your "arguably on paper best in the world" isn't, you make stuff up about the other mob. Discovering ESPN-like data bases is especially helpful as are 7 second video clips proving habitual cheating cheatery by everyone other then our lot. That is, if you are a shrill 14 year old who has no idea how it feels to have your face buried in the cricket pitch, top dressed for winter with more gravel than loam, laid by the local council's lowest tenderer.
It doesn't only emanate from the game's infant supporters. I recall walking across the car park to the Sydney Cricket Ground in the early '90s, in grand anticipation of seeing the Springboks in action here for the first time in twenty years. I was with the Eastwood Club crew - our Marty Roebuck was at full back and his protégé Matt Burke was on the threshold of Wallaby selection. Listening to a couple of older blokes I couldn't believe their vitriol towards the Springboks.
It took me a while to work that out. It was not the apartheid issue, the Springboks hadn't done anything wrong. It came down to envy of the Springboks' past success.
"Until the 1990s South Africa were considered one of the most successful rugby nations in Test match history, with a positive win-loss ratio against every Test playing nation including their traditional rivals, New Zealand. (from Wikipedia)"
This also highlights the fact that people forget that the game goes through cycles. It took fifty years for the All Blacks to win a series over there on their turf.
Just last week I listened to an interview of Michael Cheika by Graeme Hughes, Peter Tunks and Brett Papworth on Hughes' Talkin' Sport radio program. Cheika said that most of the Wallabies have little knowledge of what and who went before them and that he was attempting to educate them with his high regard for the traditions of the game. You'd reckon profit motive alone would have players studying footage of Little's beautifully balanced running, and of where Poidevin and David Wilson were running to and what they did when they got there.
If the fans' attitudes cannot mature into an appreciation of the marvelous Blanco, the superiority of Porta, Michael Jones and Teichmann and the craft of Castrogiovanni - and of the excellence of the All Blacks - they are denying themselves an affection for all that the game offers. They are choosing to be miserable for long periods of their time following rugby.
"I don't have a huge number of examples to support this"
I'm flat out finding any. The ruthless Australian XI under the best captain I have seen, the demanding Ian Chappell, didn't cop any of this jealousy, nor did Clive Lloyd's exceptional West Indies.
Chappelli's team got away with more than Steve Waugh's lot, who plied their trade in the modern era when whinging about excellence became de rigueur. They also got plenty from the politicking anti-sport mob who reckon young blokes must cease on field bullying, that they should attend cooking classes and stand aside to let wymminses past them and into the best jobs.
St George weren't hated during their dozen or so rugby league premiership years, they were held in awe. Brisbane Broncos weren't much liked but that was more about interstate rivalry I believe.
My only example is Greg Norman, who rocketed to the top and didn't pay homage en route to the Aussie rat pack of Shearer, Newton, Davis and others. He stood aloof, singularly focused and successful and was criticised for it. That continued through his best years, notwithstanding that he did more to promote Australian golf than any player before him or since. Attacks by the media and fans accusing him of "choking" were a bloody disgrace. I feel similarly about the same accusation against the All Blacks in the World Cup. Other golfers / teams were better on the day and that is all it was.
That term holds as much substance to me as the stupid "X factor" bandied about in recent years by inarticulate dills who are incapable of putting into words the specific capabilities they see in a player.
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I do enjoy your work on here Mick. Great stuff.
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@Catogrande said in Theory about historically successful teams:
@MajorRage Don't be too downhearted mate. As long as you and Mrs MR put in a shift each week you should be able to unlearn your nipper of some of the crap that gets fed to them.
Here's a really special case at my kids' senior school (up to GCSE) from the science teacher - "There is enough energy in a ham sandwich to allow a person to climb Mt Everest"!
Said "science" teacher also put a scare into the kids about bird flu telling the class that she had bought some tamiflu on the internet and that it is running out because the Government was stockpiling it for "essential occupations".
How big is the ham sandwich?
