All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.
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@pakman said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@antipodean Got a bite! To expand: I have no desire for rugby to turn into some sort of second rate NFL. My view is rule ought to be that if interference on balance of probabilities wasn't going to prevent a try it ought to be ignored and the try given.
To me, Speight was 90% likely to have scored with no boneheaded interference from DHP, and under such a rule try would have been awarded.
Likewise, IMO Coles missed try because of his choice not to dive early and the bounce of the ball, and interference didn't alter this, so under such rule no penalty try.
That said, the rules are the rules, and the Speight non try unquestionably CAN be justified as a valid application of the current ones -- as could a try!
italicised text@pakman you are ignoring the fact that the ref has to manage the whole game with the same set of laws and the same application, not just try scoring movements. Let's say for example the DHP/Savea incident happens at the Wallabies 22 and Speight is tackled at the ABs 22 after a chase down from another player. Lets also say that the AR picked it up from the sideline and asks the ref to check it.
Owens still applies the same logic and says the action materially affected the game.
Now lets try another piece of foul play. Let's say at the ruck before Foley made his line break Hooper head butted an AB (also seen by the AR). Even if DHP let Savea chase Speight and it was unsuccessful the try would still be rubbed out because of earlier foul play even though Hooper's headbutt had no bearing on Speight scoring.
The question was never 'was Speight going to score regardless' it was always 'did DHPs action have a material effect on play' which it did because Savea was denied the opportunity to possibly do the incredible just as BB did against South Africa.
You can't guess outcomes but you can see opportunities taken away.
Even a straight forward 'blocking' call from a back line move doesn't assume the blocked carrier would make the tackle, just that he would be in a position to attempt it. -
I'm still amazed how in a game where Aussie were awarded a conversion they missed AND were given a penalty immediately following that for some innocuous push and shove following the try - they are still the victims.
Huge mental issues for Aussie - the biggest concern of the whole press performance was how Cheika said he would only let the team use the (correct) TMO decision as an excuse if they lost by a try. Not exactly the "no excuses" mentality you want your team to have.
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@rotated i can't remember seeing the post conversion penalty before. Bizarre
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/video/news/video.cfm?c_id=1501138&gal_cid=1501138&gallery_id=166902
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@rotated said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
Huge mental issues for Aussie - the biggest concern of the whole press performance was how Cheika said he would only let the team use the (correct) TMO decision as an excuse if they lost by a try. Not exactly the "no excuses" mentality you want your team to have.
Which he didn't actually say. He was asked if it was a turning point, and he said words to the effect of:
"It's only a turning point we lose by a score, perhaps... "
Again, he was up front about the team owning their mistakes and turning over too much ball. So was Moore. Even stated they'd been beaten thoroughly and the ABs had played well.
Don't let that get the way of your rhetoric, though.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
He's not even that effective at stealingthis is such bullshit bones. it is a simple fact that he gets more turnovers than anyone else. and he has done for years, in any competition he has played in. how is that 'not even that effective'?
seems to me that there are just a heap of people on here struggling to deal with the fact that an aussie can be better at something than our guys. so we get:
'yeah but he's shit at other things',
'yeah but our fellas could do it if they wanted to',
'yeah but turnovers don't even matter'
'yeah but his teams don't win so overall he must be shit' etc etc.and now: 'he's not even that good at stealing'. it's crap, why can't you guys just show a tiny bit of objectivity and give the preaching idiot some credit where it's due - so i can stop defending the fucker.
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@rotated said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
I'm still amazed how in a game where Aussie were awarded a conversion they missed AND were given a penalty immediately following that for some innocuous push and shove following the try - they are still the victims.
Huge mental issues for Aussie - the biggest concern of the whole press performance was how Cheika said he would only let the team use the (correct) TMO decision as an excuse if they lost by a try. Not exactly the "no excuses" mentality you want your team to have.
Visited GAGR yesterday....never again. Most on there are stilll whingeing, playing the victims and are actually defending Cheika's rant.
I used to be a fan of their podcasts, but there's a guy on there called Matt Rowley (owns the website I think) who's obviously got plenty of issues on anything to do with NZ rugby. Decided to check his twitter feed, and the guy is just a bully who leads with the anti kiwi vitriol and a lot of the posters follow suit. It's a shame because guys like Barbarian etc appear to be decent blokes.
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@reprobate I think Bones' comments are a reaction to the uber-hype that seems to follow Pocock.
Yes he is excellent at breakdown turnovers. However over the last 5 or so years this seems to have equated into a narrative that somehow this automatically means he is the premier openside flanker in World Rugby by default. The fact is he a poor ball runner, has poor ball skills, is not a dominant tackler etc etc.
If there's one thing the AB forwards have shown over this period it is the range of skills and influence that they have is extensive. It is like chalk and cheese.
With such a limited game as well I don't think it has helped the Wallaby pack's balance this year, particularly picking him at 8 (not his fault).
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@canefan said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@rotated i can't remember seeing the post conversion penalty before. Bizarre
Not that uncommon. A high tackle in act of scoring. Or flopping/kneeing a guy when he's scored etc. or cough, smashing the try scorer's nose with your forearm etc.
Never used to happen for being a dick after tries are scored, because that never used to happen.
If I was reffing a match with A Ioane playing -then this would occur about 4 times per game .....
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@akan004 He's the one that does the videos isn't he? He's unhinged.
Possibly, as he owns the site. But he's certainly on the podcasts
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@reprobate Yeah, nah. If he was so good at stealing, he'd be able to do it alongside all the other great stuff he does... except he doesn't. If Read or Cane set about only looking to try and get steals throughout a match and not be good at or do much else, I'd imagine they'd be just great for Australia too.
To me, I'd liken your argument to saying you'd rather have Steyn than Barrett, because wow what a great kicker!
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate Yeah, nah. If he was so good at stealing, he'd be able to do it alongside all the other great stuff he does... except he doesn't. If Read or Cane set about only looking to try and get steals throughout a match and not be good at or do much else, I'd imagine they'd be just great for Australia too.
To me, I'd liken your argument to saying you'd rather have Steyn than Barrett, because wow what a great kicker!
bro, the real parallel would be you telling me that steyn isn't a good goal-kicker - because he doesn't do anything else - and anyone could be that good if they didn't have to do other things too. there are probably a dozen guys in world rugby i'd pick ahead of steyn to play 10 - but that doesn't mean he's not good at kicking goals.
as far as selection goes, the strongest thing i've said is that i think he'd be picked in an anzac squad ahead of savea or todd - but not cane. that's largely based on experience at this stage, given those other guys have only started a couple of tests each, and most of the rugby world outside of nz would agree with me.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate Yeah, nah. If he was so good at stealing, he'd be able to do it alongside all the other great stuff he does... except he doesn't. If Read or Cane set about only looking to try and get steals throughout a match and not be good at or do much else, I'd imagine they'd be just great for Australia too.
To me, I'd liken your argument to saying you'd rather have Steyn than Barrett, because wow what a great kicker!
bro, the real parallel would be you telling me that steyn isn't a good
goal-kickerfirst five-eighth - because he doesn't do anything else - and anyone could be that good if they didn't have to do other things too. there are probably a dozen guys in world rugby i'd pick ahead of steyn to play 10 - but that doesn't mean he's not good at kicking goals.Fixed.
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@Bones said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
and apologies I am still learming this new formating system. Should read as
--"It's not really a head butt. More Hoopah waving his hair in the opposition's face."
Should be a red card just on account of all that hybrid bogan-hipster grease.
You might take from this I am not a fan of MH. True, I think he is on the verge of flat track bullyism and isn't that effective against top sides, he is fast but too busy running into people to set up strategic team ploys.
I might risk the neoliberal wrath of the collective TSF fratpack but I prefer Pocock, he runs as fast and as agile as a concrete hippo and he might be a one trick pony but he is so good at that one trick and sch a team player that you could build a side around his steals. Surprised he isn't called Arnie the jackal.This is up there with the Savea is shit talk (and has been done to death as much). He's not even that effective at stealing and even if he was, what good does it really do his team?
I thought we all agreed it was "Savea isn't quite at the ridiculously good standards he set for himself" rather than "Savea is shit"
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@rotated said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
I'm still amazed how in a game where Aussie were awarded a conversion they missed AND were given a penalty immediately following that for some innocuous push and shove following the try - they are still the victims.
Huge mental issues for Aussie - the biggest concern of the whole press performance was how Cheika said he would only let the team use the (correct) TMO decision as an excuse if they lost by a try. Not exactly the "no excuses" mentality you want your team to have.
Visited GNGR yesterday....never again. Most on there are stilll whingeing, playing the victims and are actually defending Cheika's rant.
I used to be a fan of their podcasts, but there's a guy on there called Matt Rowley (owns the website I think) who's obviously got plenty of issues on anything to do with NZ rugby. Decided to check his twitter feed, and the guy is just a bully who leads with the anti kiwi vitriol and a lot of the posters follow suit. It's a shame because guys like Barbarian etc appear to be decent blokes.
I used to post there frequently, but I've walked away from it for three reasons. They take themselves far too seriously, the anti-NZ from a few (certainly not all) & Matt Rowley. I don't want to associate anything to do with that guy. As you say, a complete and utter troll who has problems with kiwis. I've not looked at his twitter feed, so I just did - and this made me actually LOL ...
A kiwi writes - if I feel the need to read a about a bunch of sore losers whinging about nz rugby , GAGR is the place to guy ... to which Rowley called him a kiwi troll ... but then later on says to the same guy - "lesson, someone pointing out something you don't like isn't trolling"
Irony, in it's most pure, sweetest form.
(caveat - there are many balanced, honest, good, sincere posters there who I wish nothing but well - barbarian certainly at the top of this tree)
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Bones said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate Yeah, nah. If he was so good at stealing, he'd be able to do it alongside all the other great stuff he does... except he doesn't. If Read or Cane set about only looking to try and get steals throughout a match and not be good at or do much else, I'd imagine they'd be just great for Australia too.
To me, I'd liken your argument to saying you'd rather have Steyn than Barrett, because wow what a great kicker!
bro, the real parallel would be you telling me that steyn isn't a good goal-kicker - because he doesn't do anything else - and anyone could be that good if they didn't have to do other things too. there are probably a dozen guys in world rugby i'd pick ahead of steyn to play 10 - but that doesn't mean he's not good at kicking goals.
as far as selection goes, the strongest thing i've said is that i think he'd be picked in an anzac squad ahead of savea or todd - but not cane. that's largely based on experience at this stage, given those other guys have only started a couple of tests each, and most of the rugby world outside of nz would agree with me.
My point exactly.
I said kicking, not goal-kicking. Steyn is a great kicker - because that's all he fucken does. If all our 10 did was kick, I'm sure he'd be deemed to be a great kicker too.
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@Bones i don't think steyn is a great kicker in open play, in fact i think he is below average at that level. you said pocock isn't good at breakdown turnovers - he just is though. whatever the reason for that, or what he sacrifices to achieve it, he just is.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
bro, the real parallel would be you telling me that steyn isn't a good
goal-kickerfirst five-eighth - because he doesn't do anything else - and anyone could be that good if they didn't have to do other things too. there are probably a dozen guys in world rugby i'd pick ahead of steyn to play 10 - but that doesn't mean he's not good at kicking goals.Fixed.
nah bro, not even. bones' statement was that pocock wasn't even that good at steals. it wasn't whether he was a good 7.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@Bones i don't think steyn is a great kicker in open play, in fact i think he is below average at that level. you said pocock isn't good at breakdown turnovers - he just is though. whatever the reason for that, or what he sacrifices to achieve it, he just is.
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
@reprobate said in All Blacks v Wallabies at Eden Park.:
bro, the real parallel would be you telling me that steyn isn't a good
goal-kickerfirst five-eighth - because he doesn't do anything else - and anyone could be that good if they didn't have to do other things too. there are probably a dozen guys in world rugby i'd pick ahead of steyn to play 10 - but that doesn't mean he's not good at kicking goals.Fixed.
nah bro, not even. bones' statement was that pocock wasn't even that good at steals. it wasn't whether he was a good 7.
Well no, that's just all he does so it might seem he gets plenty. He'd be good at it if he managed to build it into general good play, not if that's all he concentrates on - again, most of our loosies/locks would equal Pocock in those stats if that's all they did.
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@Bones bro that is like saying val adams isn't that good at the shot cause she doesn't bother with the high jump.
sam whitelock and brodie retallick are in my opinion the two best locks in the world - but if you think either of them has the strength over the ball of pocock, you're dreaming. his centre of gravity is about halfway up their shins.
