All Blacks 2025
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew Christie was dropped wasn't he?
Sititi, agree, continuing superb selections that injury forced in the past few years.
Seems both of these last coaching groups lacked a bit of forward thinking and were far too conservative unless the cards they were dealt forced them to be otherwise.
With Roigard, Sititi, Lakai, Aumua, Holland...... hopefully Jacomb & Love in the squad, and others coming through Super Rugby, the All Blacks are going to have a bright future regardless of the coaching group.......
The gap between Lakai (v France) and Cane was huge. Razor speaks experience, but there is good and bad experience. Seriously, in the test v Aus at the cake tin I would have given Sam a 1, and that was because it was his 100th game. I went back and watched the full game, with full attention on Sam and just shook my head.
Would Sititi have gotten a run if Blackadder was not injured? How many games would the ABs have won without Sititi? Lakai only got a run as Cane got injured. And all of a sudden we had a 7 that had speed to the ball, great on attack, great on defence. Taylor gets injured, Aumua runs on gets serious time and we see his potential.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I think Clarke at 11 and WJ at 14 with Love at 15 would be ideal.
I want to at least see that combination once or twice in a big game
I'd just like to see Love (and the other squad members not part of the coaching setup's magic circle) given some game-time....
I don't like feeling that Razor sees some of these up and comers as mere place holders for the guys he really wants to come home
Who’s he waiting to come home to take Love’s spot?
I do agree that DMAC probably feels like a placeholder though!
As long as he's a placeholder for our new young 10 and not the overhyped Cantab who chose overseas.
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
Hansen/Smith/Cron 2011-2015.
Bro, come on, don't rewrite history, Foster was the number 3 name on that coaching list, Cron was a specific scrum coach.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@Chris I remain unconvinced that we can win 2027 WC with this current coaching staff, look at the last 4 World Cup winners all of them had at least 1 world class assistant coach, 2011 Professor, 2015 Professor, 2019/2023 Nienaber and Felix Jones, and world rugby is only getting more competitive and the gap between NZ and European resources/money getting bigger so feel we need a genuine point of difference (like Tony Brown is) going forward.
Bollocks. Stop making shit up. It’s just revisionism.
You don’t have any idea if this listed were be any better.
What on earth are you trying to say?
How is it revisionism, On which planet is Razor's group on the same level as the last 4 WC winning coaching groups? Erasmus/Neiber/Felix Jones 2019-2023, Hansen/Smith/Cron 2011-2015.
What had Ellison & Holland achieved in comparison to those widely respected names before they got their gigs?
I've seen plenty of articles with players referencing those listed as great coaches, a lot effluent in their praise for them. I haven't heard a single account of a current player praising Ellison or Holland as coaches, have you?
What had Rassie and Jacques whatsiafsce achieved as international coaches before the won the World Cup in 2019?
The fact is they have created their reputation through World Cup wins. Not before.
Felix Jones is a good coach. But is now elevated to genius because the team he worked with managed to win a World Cup by 1 point when absolutely everything went their way in the final.
Wrong. Jones was also part of the group in 2019 as well, he was also invited into the Irish coaching setup by Schmidt because he had such an astute rugby brain, he was basically Ben Smith of Ireland but got too many career injuries so made the transition into coaching very early on, Schmidt rates him extremely highly, as does every player you ask.
Rassie had taken the Cheetahs to their first Currie Cup title in 26 years, a team with very modest talent, Jacques coached the Stormers to the best defense in SR and Rassie coached Munster to great success with Jacques coaching the defense again. They were highly regarded coaches before they got their SA roles - they were already considered the top coaches from their country at the time.......... Can you say the same for Holland & Ellison?
Not wrong at all.
Razor has 7 SR titles before he even coached international rugby. Rassie had shit compared to him. He was awful in his first year and was going to resign if they lost the Wellington match in 2018.
Holland and Ellison will have 4 years international experience before the next World Cup. It’s pointless comparing them to Rassie and Neinaber.
Holland has 14 years experience of coaching. I’m not really sure what else he needs to have done to get an international coaching gig.
Stop moaning about shit that is yet to happen.
Fair enough about felix jones but he had fuck all experience before 2019. Far less than the guys you are complaining about.
Hey, did you hear about that Tamito Ellison bloke? He got invited to coach the all blacks because he had such an astute rugby brain 👍
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I also assume Jordie Barratt will require significant time off once the European season finishes - he will have had a 15 month season after all.
Great opportunity for a 12 - Lam, Higgins, Tupeea to stake a claim for that 12 berth. I’m not sure I want to see Leinart Brown come in until Barrett gets back. That would be a waste’s opportunity to blood someone new.
I imagine Barrett will be back in early Sept or the start of TRC? Any one know what the timeframe looks like?
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
I also assume Jordie Barratt will require significant time off once the European season finishes - he will have had a 15 month season after all.
Great opportunity for a 12 - Lam, Higgins, Tupeea to stake a claim for that 12 berth. I’m not sure I want to see Leinart Brown come in until Barrett gets back. That would be a waste’s opportunity to blood someone new.
I imagine Barrett will be back in early Sept or the start of TRC? Any one know what the timeframe looks like?
I think Jordie actually leaves Ireland before end of season Grubs, not sure he will be there for finals. Not sure but seem to have something in back of mind as NZR were involved with the contract is some way.
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Hey mate, I had a search for articles on it and the ones that mention the length say it is to the end of the season.
Let’s see. If it was to the end of the season he could have 3 months off, come back for 3 months international season and then have the summer off
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
Holland has 14 years experience of coaching. I’m not really sure what els e he needs to have done to get an international coaching gig.
And Foster prior to getting the job in 2019 had 8 yews international experience plus 8 years as a HC with the Chiefs and 3 years with Waikato, Sometimes you either have it or you don't.
Holland was widely derided on Munster rugby forums because their backline was so one-dimensional and ineffective under his coaching from 2008-2012. He tanked the Hurricanes after Boyd and Plumtree left and the ship only somewhat righted itself in his last season (2023) because of the influence of Tyler Blyeendaal and Jamie McKintosh on the group.
The Hurricanes players were raving about Blyeendaal's coaching and it was evident in 2024 after Holland left when Blyeendaal assumed full control the Hurricanes backline could finally function effectively against the top sides.
They went from finishing 5th on 41 points in 2023 to finishing 1st on 56 points in 2024,
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
Holland has 14 years experience of coaching. I’m not really sure what els e he needs to have done to get an international coaching gig.
And Foster prior to getting the job in 2019 had 8 yews international experience plus 8 years as a HC with the Chiefs and 3 years with Waikato, Sometimes you either have it or you don't.
Holland was widely derided on Munster rugby forums because their backline was so one-dimensional and ineffective under his coaching from 2008-2012. He tanked the Hurricanes after Boyd and Plumtree left and the ship only somewhat righted itself in his last season (2023) because of the influence of Tyler Blyeendaal and Jamie McKintosh on the group.
The Hurricanes players were raving about Blyeendaal's coaching and it was evident in 2024 after Holland left when Blyeendaal assumed full control the Hurricanes backline could finally function effectively against the top sides.
They went from finishing 5th on 41 points in 2023 to finishing 1st on 56 points in 2024,
Difference is Holland is not a head coach. He has small area of responsibility with the AB coaching set up. We all knew Fozzie was not good enough and his reputation was saved when he effectively handed the team over to Schmidt and Ryan. Good team man Fozzie and would be an outstanding team Manager just not a good head coach.
Honestly, I don’t know how good he is. Or how bad he is being away from Nz and if you ask me if I want Brown instead of him I would say yes. Mind you I would have preferred Schmidt instead of razor.
However, he has spent 30 years in pro rugby as a player and then as a coach. There really isn’t anything he doesn’t know at this stage and just because he may not have done as well as a head coach doesn’t mean he can’t be highly effective as an assistant coach.
there is a lot of coaching talent in the AB set up and we have yet to see this best of it on this team. They had a tough first year but there are signs that they are improving and we should be better next year.
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@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
Me too. I thought our tactics were a bit naive in the initial part of the year but we balanced out our approach the longer the year panned out.
I want a more merit based selection approach and want a heavier weighting applied to super rugby form.
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@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
Me too. I thought our tactics were a bit naive in the initial part of the year but we balanced out our approach the longer the year panned out.
I want a more merit based selection approach and want a heavier weighting applied to super rugby form.
The ABs were always a meritocracy. There was never much room for sentimentality, just ask Buck. I think we agree the ABs don't feel like a meritocracy right now, and it is holding us back
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
Me too. I thought our tactics were a bit naive in the initial part of the year but we balanced out our approach the longer the year panned out.
I want a more merit based selection approach and want a heavier weighting applied to super rugby form.
The ABs were always a meritocracy. There was never much room for sentimentality, just ask Buck. I think we agree the ABs don't feel like a meritocracy right now, and it is holding us back
I disagree Grubs, I don't think any AB coach doesn't select players that they believe are best for the team or tactics etc they are playing. I don't really think we are almost ever the people to decide who merits selection. The unfortunate thing is most of us pick on emotion (ie favourite players/team etc). And do our selecting from what we see on our tv screens. And Buck was one who said that when he was running a training at our club in Brisbane. No coach will ever pick players he doesn't think will be good for his team, as it's his rep on the line.
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
Me too. I thought our tactics were a bit naive in the initial part of the year but we balanced out our approach the longer the year panned out.
I want a more merit based selection approach and want a heavier weighting applied to super rugby form.
The ABs were always a meritocracy. There was never much room for sentimentality, just ask Buck. I think we agree the ABs don't feel like a meritocracy right now, and it is holding us back
I disagree Grubs, I don't think any AB coach doesn't select players that they believe are best for the team or tactics etc they are playing. I don't really think we are almost ever the people to decide who merits selection. The unfortunate thing is most of us pick on emotion (ie favourite players/team etc). And do our selecting from what we see on our tv screens. And Buck was one who said that when he was running a training at our club in Brisbane. No coach will ever pick players he doesn't think will be good for his team, as it's his rep on the line.
Were you replying to my post there Danny?
I agree that selectors are doing what they think are right for the team as it’s their team and ultimately their reputation , career on the line.
Yes, there is far more that goes into selecting than is armchair selectors think of course, but I have been been been a stakeholder in NZ rugby for decades now and played a little bit as you know. I was never a great rugby player but that doesn’t stop me being able to be pretty knowledgeable about what I am seeing and generally my ‘gut feel’ is fairly accurate. I do tend to overestimate the quality of NZ players still but that is just natural bias I suppose.
The reasoning for my assertion about super rugby is that we seem to be in the mindset that it is not producing players for test rugby. But if we think about the impact some players have had over the last 15months then I think that that it’s produced some pretty exciting talent for the All Blacks over that time.
Razor built his reputation from super rugby so if anyone knows the value of it then it should be him. If he doesn’t think it is a comp that is up to it from a player point of view then what does that say about his coaching achievements?
I get his reasoning for selecting Cane, TJ, Barrett, ALB and they had good games and not so good as results show.
I don’t get his reasoning for pushing a number of Crusader based players for cover/squad players all the time - this is the All Blacks not the cantablacks and it is demoralising for players who aren’t from a certain franchise.
I get it from a coaching point of view - choosing who he has worked with - but it has blown up in his face Very early and his response wise a crusaders coach. It’s a minor quibble but he has to show he has let go of any provincial bias.
I think we have the makings of a very strong AB squad that can go to RWC2027 and a lot of it is in place but I don’t want someone like Love to be held back so we nurse Barrett through another 20 caps etc. be bold, pick players that excel in super rugby and build shared experience together (nothing beats winning and losing together on a journey. Far better than getting experience under another coach. You want a core of players who have gone through it together, learnt together and suffered and celebrated together) and have 30-40 test cap All Blacks that have debuted for him that are then world class by the next World Cup.
That’s my rambling thoughts 👍
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@Dan54 said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster said in All Blacks 2025:
@canefan said in All Blacks 2025:
@DaGrubster I want to see some improvement in selection and tactics in 2025
Me too. I thought our tactics were a bit naive in the initial part of the year but we balanced out our approach the longer the year panned out.
I want a more merit based selection approach and want a heavier weighting applied to super rugby form.
The ABs were always a meritocracy. There was never much room for sentimentality, just ask Buck. I think we agree the ABs don't feel like a meritocracy right now, and it is holding us back
I disagree Grubs, I don't think any AB coach doesn't select players that they believe are best for the team or tactics etc they are playing. I don't really think we are almost ever the people to decide who merits selection. The unfortunate thing is most of us pick on emotion (ie favourite players/team etc). And do our selecting from what we see on our tv screens. And Buck was one who said that when he was running a training at our club in Brisbane. No coach will ever pick players he doesn't think will be good for his team, as it's his rep on the line.
Whilst I have no doubt Razor like any coach is selecting the team he believes is best - that doesn't necessarily mean his selection instincts/methodology is strong/correct.
Razor may have access to a lot more information behind his decision making than the fans but ultimately he is judged by the play on the field - that's the arbiter of truth.
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2025:
Absolutely gobsmacked at this blind defence of the coaches. Unbelievable.
Back to true form. On ya Dan.
Bones that's not blind defence, not saying they alwaysd right, but only an idiot thinks any coach wouldn't pick who he (or she) doesn't pick who they think is best for what he wants the team to do. It's their reputation they rying to build etc. Every person on here that has coached I guarantee picked players THEY thought was best for team.
Mater that's not blind defence , but just realsism, and knowing almost all people including coaches have an ego. I know I did
F*** me I would of had a different coach of AB if I had say, not saying I right or wrong, but how the hell is that blindly defending coach. -
@DaGrubster , mate I was just saying the idea that anyone doesn't select on merit is wrong. Not sure what they use , or saying they should or shouldn't use Super form.
I don't believe players are knowingly selected for sentimental reasons. I looked at people who rubbished why TJP and Cane were selected this season and said it was sentimental etc. I personally would of picked them both as I thought they were within the best for their positions when they picked. .I perhaps am not right, but I say that from what I think. I didn't agree with all AB selections, but tend to get proved wrong by players I not sure about anyway.
