All Blacks 2024
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@SammyC said in All Blacks 2024:
Long time listener, first time caller 😊
This season hasn’t surprised me at all, I’ve been a part of the local rugby scene in Chch for a number of years….. and have had a few dealings with both Razor and Jase Ryan.
Razor has no interest in building depth past the next world cup, he’s all about his own legacy and wants to win the world cup with NZ and then go and win it with England or someone else. Becoming the first coach to win it with 2 different countries.
Rightly or wrongly, he thinks picking all the old blokes is the way to do it.
Jason Ryan is a bit of a prick and hates Hoskins Sotutu.
Jason is very good at holding grudges. There’s a number of people around the traps down here that have been cut off by for disagreeing with him (or just not giving him the accolades he thinks he deserves).Despite the above, I am still glad we have these guys and not Foster.
Really intereesting scuttlebutt Sammy.
On Jason Ryan, well, the forward pack is VASTLY improved under him.
Perhaps you have to be a bit of a prick to drive that improvement.The average age of our players is significantly less than the Boks.
Rassie is attempting to build depth, but just how many of those coming through will be top level test players is hard to gauge. Especially when the more experienced heads depart.
(Bongi 34, Steph De Toit 32, Kwagga Smith 31, Etzebeth 33, Kolisi 33, Mostert 34, De Allende 33, Kolbe 31, Le Roux 35, Kriel 30, Am 31, Mapimpi 34)
In fact , if you look at the squad, there are very few young ones in there at all.
South Africa squad for season 2024/2025
South Africa2024/2025 squad : heights, weights, ages, birthdates...
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@Bones said in All Blacks 2024:
@Frank didn't he use more players though? Which could imply it's experience at the next level down that counts...
Which of the new players he has introduced are going to be at the same level as the more experienced heads in front of them?
I really don't know enough about their team to say.
Their 10 is certainly an upgrade.
Has he found another lock anywhere near as good as Etzebeth - no
Flankers as good as Steph De Toit, Kwagga Smith of Kolisi - noOther positions I am not sure.
What it looks to me is that while he has introduced players, the key point of whether they be as good as the predecessors is largely unknown. (and could be unlikely)
I think there may be significant step downs coming (hoping - haha)
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@gt12 said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks 2024:
@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
After winning vs Oz, Oz, Japan, England and Ireland, the nay-sayers had somewhat quietened and there were even - god help us - a few vaguely positive comments. People "could see where Razor's taking the team".
So, the nay sayers should have been quietened by two wins, one very shaky, over a poor Wallabies side, a walkover against Japan, yet another close call versus a very limited Pomgolia and a decent showing up against an Ireland who are clearly in decline?
I'm stating that as a fact. If you look at the Ireland thread after the match and the France thread pre-match, there was actually - for once - a small degree of positivity.
As soon as we lost to France, that evaporated.
Ok, this feels like bait, but I’ll play.
These types of selections may be entirely forgivable, if we won. But we didn’t.
I don't know why you think it's bait, because you're at least partially agreeing with me.
I'm saying that if you win everything is forgiven - except a lack of style.
Victor reckons Razor can lose and people would be happy with that if he'd picked the Baby Blacks.
I reckon if he loses nothing is forgiven.
Not just Razor - every All Black coach. Remeber Sir Ted wondering if he'd be able to live in NZ if they'd lost the 2011 final.
The expectations of the NZ rugby public have been tempered by the results of the last few years....
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@Frank squad renewal is hard. Especially when you’re trying to replace proven Champions.
Still, I’m only worried about three players:
Bongi
Malherbe
EbenAnd even then I’m not so worried about them as about their positions:
- Just aren’t that many right-sized humans with the right mentality for them: and
- it takes serious time and care to mature those few into greats in those positions.
Bongi and Malherbe were both shit when they first made the bok team. I used to wonder how stellar they must ‘ve been around a braai to keep getting selected. Took at least 3/4 years before I started to see what successive Bok selectors had seen.
Even Eben who was an obvious monster took a few seasons to get to Bok standard and a few more before I believed he was reaching Bakkies’ levels. And before that I used to worry that Bakkies wasn’t a solid replacement for Krynauw Otto who I thought was a poor man’s Wiese.
So Rassie better hurry up and find the next Eben, it would be shit to get into the situation you’ve had to suffer through replacing Brodie. Where you know the guy in the squad isn’t really up to snuff, but he’s sucking up caps and next thing you know he’s your captain.
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@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
Balanced? They were arguably the greatest loosforward trio to play the game. Not sure we have that cattle now ... regardless of "balance".
Unfair comparison.
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@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2024:
10-4 could easily have been 8-6.
But it wasn't.
Could easily have been 14-0. But it wasn't.
The latter would have had us dancing in the street, and not questioning anything. Not that 4 losses is a good thing, but that record will keep him honest and not resting on laurels.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks 2024:
Every RWC elimination - except maybe Laurie, but he had Suzy to blame.
And low expectations
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@ARHS said in All Blacks 2024:
Against Italy it felt like watching the Crusaders, grinding out an ugly win.
Isn't the way the Saders grind out wins in 'Test Match style' one of reasons we al wanted Razor?
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@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
Balanced? They were arguably the greatest loosforward trio to play the game. Not sure we have that cattle now ... regardless of "balance".
Unfair comparison.
A better comparison might be the aussies trying to play 2 x 7s and it being shit, even though both their 7s were better players than their other loose forward options.
The initial comparison might be unfair due to player quality, but it's still a fair point re balance. And it's even worse if you look at the whole squad and add DP, LJ, EB, CLW, PL. Basically everyone except Finau is smaller than both Kaino and Read, and none of them are McCaw. -
DP is taller and heavier than Read, heavier than Kaino, Sititi is 3kg heavier than Kaino, heavier than Read, Blackadder is the same height and weight as Kaino. Lakai is 110kg the same weight as Kaino.
Savea is really the only outlier, Jacobson and Cane are same weight as McCaw, I don't think you could be further off the mark.
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@darylmitchell said in All Blacks 2024:
DP is taller and heavier than Read, heavier than Kaino, Sititi is 3kg heavier than Kaino, heavier than Read, Blackadder is the same height and weight as Kaino. Lakai is 110kg the same weight as Kaino.
Savea is really the only outlier, Jacobson and Cane are same weight as McCaw, I don't think you could be further off the mark.
Papali'i is listed as 193cm which I think is pretty close to the mark and Jacobson is a similar height. De Groot is listed as 190cm.
Kaino is listed as 196cm and Read 193cm but I wouldn't be surprised if these figures were the other way round.
Savea is listed as 190cm and Rieko is listed as 189cm but Rieko is clearly taller
Akira is listed as 194cm and Suafoa is listed as 196cm
I'd say a lot of the listing figures seem like BS.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
Balanced? They were arguably the greatest loosforward trio to play the game. Not sure we have that cattle now ... regardless of "balance".
Unfair comparison.
A better comparison might be the aussies trying to play 2 x 7s and it being shit, even though both their 7s were better players than their other loose forward options.
The initial comparison might be unfair due to player quality, but it's still a fair point re balance. And it's even worse if you look at the whole squad and add DP, LJ, EB, CLW, PL. Basically everyone except Finau is smaller than both Kaino and Read, and none of them are McCaw.Yes. Agree with that.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
Balanced? They were arguably the greatest loosforward trio to play the game. Not sure we have that cattle now ... regardless of "balance".
Unfair comparison.
A better comparison might be the aussies trying to play 2 x 7s and it being shit, even though both their 7s were better players than their other loose forward options.
The initial comparison might be unfair due to player quality, but it's still a fair point re balance. And it's even worse if you look at the whole squad and add DP, LJ, EB, CLW, PL. Basically everyone except Finau is smaller than both Kaino and Read, and none of them are McCaw.Yeah, the balance of Kaino, McCaw and Read worked well because each had strengths that complimented each other. Kaino was the enforcer making dominant tackles, McCaw with the extremely (inhumanely in McCaw's case) high work rate being influential on defense and at ruck, and Read excellent ball in hand both close in and wider out. Of course there is overlap in their roles but the players key strengths are what was important.
This year the only way to achieve that balance was having Finau at 6, but he's very young and a complete rookie so throwing him in the deep end was stupid and didn't work. Then we've played Blackadder at 6, meaning we had two 7s and one 8, then we've played Sititi at 6, meaning we have one 7 and two 8s. As well as Sititi has played, having him at 6 upset the balance of the trio and we paid for it, especially during the RC where our loosies were outplayed basically every game.
These problems were obvious as soon as the first squad was announced. One rookie 6, a host of 7s, and two 8s with one a rookie. You replace Blackadder with Akira and Jacobson with Sotutu and we suddenly have a lot more talent and a lot more options.
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
This year the only way to achieve that balance was having Finau at 6, but he's very young and a complete rookie so throwing him in the deep end was stupid and didn't work
Yet Sititi did and less experienced than Finau
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@No-Quarter said in All Blacks 2024:
@reprobate said in All Blacks 2024:
@booboo said in All Blacks 2024:
@brodean said in All Blacks 2024:
Can anyone explain the amazing balance Robertson describes with Cane, Sititi and Savea?
I thought Kaino, Read and McCaw were balanced and this new trio is nothing like that.
Balanced? They were arguably the greatest loosforward trio to play the game. Not sure we have that cattle now ... regardless of "balance".
Unfair comparison.
A better comparison might be the aussies trying to play 2 x 7s and it being shit, even though both their 7s were better players than their other loose forward options.
The initial comparison might be unfair due to player quality, but it's still a fair point re balance. And it's even worse if you look at the whole squad and add DP, LJ, EB, CLW, PL. Basically everyone except Finau is smaller than both Kaino and Read, and none of them are McCaw.Yeah, the balance of Kaino, McCaw and Read worked well because each had strengths that complimented each other. Kaino was the enforcer making dominant tackles, McCaw with the extremely (inhumanely in McCaw's case) high work rate being influential on defense and at ruck, and Read excellent ball in hand both close in and wider out. Of course there is overlap in their roles but the players key strengths are what was important.
This year the only way to achieve that balance was having Finau at 6, but he's very young and a complete rookie so throwing him in the deep end was stupid and didn't work. Then we've played Blackadder at 6, meaning we had two 7s and one 8, then we've played Sititi at 6, meaning we have one 7 and two 8s. As well as Sititi has played, having him at 6 upset the balance of the trio and we paid for it, especially during the RC where our loosies were outplayed basically every game.
These problems were obvious as soon as the first squad was announced. One rookie 6, a host of 7s, and two 8s with one a rookie. You replace Blackadder with Akira and Jacobson with Sotutu and we suddenly have a lot more talent and a lot more options.
I agree with everything except I think classing Savea as an 8 is overly generous. I actually think Sititi's best position might be 7 too.
And Read's lineout ability needs a mention for the balance.
