All Blacks v France
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks v France:
The ref was fine. Let’s not become Irish.
My comment on Amashukeli wasn’t intended as a slight against him. I also think it’s possible to talk about refereeing without it turning into ref bashing.
A ref’s interpretation of the breakdown is always important but I feel like it gains more weight when you have two opposing teams with very different playing philosophies, like New Zealand and France have. Whereas the French forward pack generally plays like a tight, cohesive unit (where they are always within a 20 metre radius of each other), the ABs like to keep width and have forwards and backs dispersed across a backline.
That also means that the tackle area becomes very important for a side like the All Blacks, as they try to limit the number of players committed to securing the ruck. When the tackle area is a mess, and you have, for example, only Will Jordan and Sevu Reece available to clean out in a ten metre radius, then it’s easy to see how that quickly turns into a problem.
That being said, there’s certainly a case to be made that the current game plan isn’t working when facing sides like France and the Springboks. In all three tests, New Zealand lost the game through their inability to win the breakdown, both on attack and defence, with France and South Africa finding it too easy to generate scores through the pick and go when within the NZ 22. In all three tests, Robertson’s solution – of running them off their feet by keeping the ball – hasn’t worked. And you’d have to wonder whether he should radically alter his approach to these teams, for example, by picking a bigger pack and by tightening the game plan.
The current game plan can still work, I think, but then you have to have a number of strike moves off of lineout and scrum which almost guarantee points (similar to how France had that maul try with the early shift up their sleeve). Currently, the ABs are getting too little purchase of those attacks for them to win these test matches.
So again, definitely not intending to bash the ref. Simply trying to get some more insight on what went wrong against France.
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@Billy-Tell Apologies, I didn't mean to sound like an Irish casual!
I think Razor desperately needs the international season to be over so he can go away and ponder his next moves. I dearly hope he has used this season to feel out what he's up against and what he was left to work with.
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@Halfback
We are right up there with the best in the world. Not too much to worry about.
Forwards are more important in the game and when you add in Lakai and Holland we are sweet. Then you add in Roigard and DMac and we are super sweet.
The boss got one position glaringly wrong IMO.
Backs are the work on for 2025 -
@sparky At the stadium it was fun.
Music, DJ, crowd video interaction and genuine bonhomie -
@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France:
@Halfback
We are right up therewithlosing to the best in the world. And Argentina. Not too much to worry about.fixed.
The boss got one position glaringly wrong IMO.
10? 15? 7? 14? 13? 12? Bench?
Backs are the work on for 2025
And the bench, perhaps. But it's getting better.
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Best Rugby Stadium in the world and the French really know how to organise a sporting event.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France:
@canefan said in All Blacks v France:
@junior said in All Blacks v France:
@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks v France:
@LagerLout said in All Blacks v France:
We are miles off being a good team, personnel wise and strategy wise. We were bloody slow to the ruck in the second half. Our wingers are bollock slow. The only places we look dangerous are in in the starting front and back rows, the rest of it we are struggling. Feels like a bleak WC cycle to me. We had so much talent and where is it now.
I have pretty much the completely opposite view. NZ lost to one of the top four teams in the world at their fortress (and it is a fortress, the loudest and most partisan atmosphere you'll get at any ground around the world).
NZ have a great front row with Samisoni Taukei'aho still to return, some very good young loose forwards, two very promising halfbacks in Roigard and Ratima.
There are a few issues across the line-up but Razor will probably push the boat out a little more next year. There's a few pieces of deadweight that probably need to be moved on but already Cane and Perenara will be gone next year, Reece has probably played his last game in black, and there are a few more players who will be under a lot of pressure. It bodes well for the future, even if they didn't always get the biscuits this year.
Bolded bit - agree with this a lot but I am not sure that we are playing to this area of strength. We are still trying to play the game like we have the world's best midfield and back 3, and a relatively weak but mobile pack, which we clearly do not.
If Razor has half a brain, over the next 3 years, we will become much more a 10 man rugby team, that scores tries off mauls, close in running and chaos ball counter attacks.
I would agree our best moments are when our forwards are smashing it up the guts, along with strong LO defence and strong scrummaging
Ah, what? Our only created try today was offload a-go-go, lots of passes around the back, and an almost intercepted loop pass.
When we were on top we played out the back almost exclusively.The problem came when France got their hands in the ball our pack had no answers for their round the corner at pace forwards game.
Then in the second half when France adapted and stopped missing tackles, and turned evey ruck in to a shit fight, we didn't adapt.
Amen to this. When France had the ball and played up the guts, they fucking bullied us. Constant momentum.
Us, not so much. All our metres pretty much made out wide, which again highlights the stupidity of picking Barrett B. -
@booboo said in All Blacks v France:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v France:
Razor fucked around and found out
2-0 on a NH tour and he changes the team
That’s Wales level dumb
Who did he change? Roigard and ?
Edit: oh yeah, Taylor
And BB for DMac
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v France:
@booboo said in All Blacks v France:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v France:
Razor fucked around and found out
2-0 on a NH tour and he changes the team
That’s Wales level dumb
Who did he change? Roigard and ?
Edit: oh yeah, Taylor
And BB for DMac
Noted
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@BerniesCorner said in All Blacks v France:
@sparky At the stadium it was fun.
Music, DJ, crowd video interaction and genuine bonhomieI like the French. A general respect and admiration for the All Blacks, good sorts
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Probably the biggest standout out for me is that not one Northern Hemisphere TV outlet knows how to follow rugby with a camera. Although the French may have done this on purpose so that the TMOs found it harder to get camera angles. Too many distant or spider cam angles, really delayed irrelevant replays etc.
Interestingly on the TMO piece, we have been schooled through the last few years about tackle accuracy, normally on the wrong end of it too, but I felt this ref was 5 years too late for his interpretations. The French this time lucky he largely refrained from using the whistle and for most of the early part of the game using his earpiece.
Still not overly upset strangely after losing that one, was a great game of rugby. Lots of positives. Our forwards were strong at set piece early, our defensive lineout was immense with many steals, just execution through the hands on attack largely let us down in the end.
I dont know if Reece lacks top end speed, or it was just lack of effort. Either way it didn't look good. I still don't largely agree in principal removing a wing tactically (unless in this case it looked like through disinterest)
Jordan either hit the line too flat (dropped ball for the try) or over corrected too late and potentially missed a late opportunity on the right wing. Was not his best performance either.
I think I understand the motive of playing BB against England, however DMac should have been starting here.
Looks like we have largely worked out how to create an impact bench, although Ratima probably would like to reflect on his efforts this week.
Lakai did not look out of place either, would have really liked to have seen how the Finau, Sitili, Savea combo worked, but we were not given a chance and unlikely this week.
Anyway, one more game and hopefully they don't bring out everyone in the squad. Probably a chance to try or continue a few new combinations, often discovered via injury this year, but promising signs
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I think one thing that was pointed out at the post match presser was that the ABs 'didn't get the chance to have the game at speed and fatigue the opposition' is a big worry. Relying on that is stupid, cos depsite WR clocks and speed up efforts, teams can slow games right down so easily. Look how long each scrum took this time? 30 seconds my arse a minute for each one, even the ABs scrums. Fake injuries to fatties, just standing up at the scrum before engage, etc. It is a stupid thing to even think of relying on, you've got to have a very well practised Plan B that is based on a very slow game. Esp as the vast majority of big games, RWC games, are grind fests and slow as fuck.
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Late to the thread, but lots of encouragement up front.
Hot take: nothing wrong with taking the 3 with 5 to go. You get the ball back ... and the task is then to advance it 40 metres downfield and win a penalty when the opposition are at their tiredest. We in fact got the ball and moved it well - just blew the last pass/catch with BB/RI.
I do not think it is necessarily as stupid a decision as people are saying, particularly the media.
Y'all should also apologise to @Bones; he's been consistent with his observations of Will Jordan - elite in some facets, but missing some bits that make great Test fullbacks. That's not a hit on Will, just that he's a better wing where the things he isn't as good at don't get exposed so much.
Overall, a pretty decent tour, but we're not slam dunks to dominate yet. Lots of promising signs though, roll on Italy and then 2025
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks v France:
Let's not compare to the previous 4 years where against the big teams we were a genuine DISTANT second each time and looked like we needed them to capitulate for us to have a chance.
Actually against the big teams we were a lot like we have been this year. Looking world beaters one minute and utter chumps the next.
First half performance was probably the best we have played this year, but you didn't have to be a soothsayer to predict where the issues would arise. Roberston is such a naturally conservative coach. This seems to rub off on the team too. When his absolutely brilliant plan A doesn't work, he's clueless and so is the team.
Beauden - fuck surely even his super fluffers can see he's a liability in the team at first 5 and at FB. He's still a naturally gifted footy player but the flashes of brilliance come about 140 minutes apart nowadays.
Jordan has no footballing brain or awareness. Put him on the wing as a finisher and fid a proper fullback.
I've never been a massive DMac fan but he is streets ahead of BB and I reckon Razors love child Richie too.
I was in favour of taking the three points on offer - except for the last one. Although I wasn't massively disappointed then either as I didn't have much confidence that we would manufacture a try either. The best, most likely outcome from going for the line for me would have been a lineout penalty. So still a point behind and less time to play.
We are making baby steps forward. Reasonably happy with the forwards both starters and bench but still massive issues at 10/12/13/15 IMO. Progress is being hampered by poor selections.
Assuming we beat Italy the season would get a pass from me, if we hadn't lost badly to Argentina. Two close matches against the Bok offset by one dismal display against the Wobblies.
Bit of luck and we could have picked up two wins in SA, but with a different bounce of the ball we could also have lost 3-0 (undeservably but still lost) to the Poms.
So a report card that says 4.5/10 needs to apply self better and eliminate distrations sounds about right to me.
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks v France:
@kpkanz said in All Blacks v France:
Let's not compare to the previous 4 years where against the big teams we were a genuine DISTANT second each time and looked like we needed them to capitulate for us to have a chance.
Actually against the big teams we were a lot like we have been this year. Looking world beaters one minute and utter chumps the next.
I'd actually disagree. Against the big teams last cycle we never looked like world beaters.
That's why it was so depressing. We looked like we never had a chance, imo.
Agree to disagree.
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I'm also confused by this narrative that we were cowards for taking the 3, and it was un-All Black like.
To me it seems much more brave and confident to say "We're not going to camp out here and hope to sneak a try in with pick and go or maul for the next 5 minutes.
Instead, we're so confident we can get back here and you can't stop us getting here, that we'll take the 3 and be back here within 5 minutes to win the game."
Which btw we actually did get back near their 22 within the 5 minutes, only for Beauden/Rieko to screw up.
I guess Scott didn't take that into account unfortunately.
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@kpkanz said in All Blacks v France:
I'm also confused by this narrative that we were cowards for taking the 3, and it was un-All Black like.
To me it seems much more brave and confident to say "We're not going to camp out here and hope to sneak a try in with pick and go or maul for the next 5 minutes.
Instead, we're so confident we can get back here and you can't stop us getting here, that we'll take the 3 and be back here within 5 minutes to win the game."
Which btw we actually did get back near their 22 within the 5 minutes, only for Beauden/Rieko to screw up.
I guess Scott didn't take that into account unfortunately.
Not sure if anyone on here has called them cowards, it was definitely not a cowardly move. I just think it was a stupid call.
What would the French have preferred? Defending a lineout 5-10 metres from their line and potentially being pinned in their red zone for the next few minutes, or to be 1 point ahead with a deep kickoff into the opposition half against a team that doesn't exit well? I think they would have been extremely relieved when we took the 3.
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks v France:
Assuming we beat Italy the season would get a pass from me, if we hadn't lost badly to Argentina. Two close matches against the Bok offset by one dismal display against the Wobblies.
This, along with the continued picking of past it/never been it players means this year is not a pass for me. I expected Razor to
- Use the time to blood more young uns not forced by injury
- Related to above, not do favourite region and senitmental picks
- Change our 'play at speed to win' gameplan to a more test sensible just smash the fuckers like the saders gameplan. I will take winning over looking pretty every day. I'd prefer both, but the skill sets and fitness difference isn't there anymore - and won't be ever again
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@kev said in All Blacks v France:
@Halfback said in All Blacks v France:
I think it's time for the Barrett brothers gimmick to be put to bed. Scott isn't the answer at captain, Beauden is out of date by a couple of seasons and Jordie barely gets a pass mark.
The 3 points with 5 to go is a pathetic call.
Also, anybody know what Havilli has added to this tour? Instagram shows me he's doing nothing but playing golf? Probably best, if he were playing he'd be throwing intercept passes.
They each stand on their own merits.
Scott looks like a good captain to me. Measured and one of our best players every game.
BB reverts to type and chooses the kick option too much. These were all poor:
- half time drop goal
- cross kick to Reece
- grubber in their 22
Jordie is Jordie.
sorry.....says they all stand on their own merits...then lists the players name as a merit...12s have to be named jordie?
