All Blacks vs Ireland
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@Mr-Fish said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
I think the selectors have made a very sensible decision sticking largely to the same 23 as last week.
Tuipulotu has flattered to deceive in the vast majority of his previous appearances for the All Blacks. He had a very good game in the opening Test of the year but was then back to his usual standards the following weekend. We've seen a few times in the past that he has good games but can't back up. He was immense off the bench last weekend so why not keep him in the role where he excelled and see if he can do it again? The bench has been a massive weakness for the All Blacks in 2024 so if he can shine from the pine while the starters maintain their standards set throughout the rest of the season, then that's a great step forward for the team.
Vaa'i, meanwhile, has been one of the All Blacks' top performers this season and last weekend was his first 'dud' of the year but given his consistency throughout the season, it wouldn't make sense to make a change in the second row just because of one underwhelming performance (I know you're not advocating from dropping Vaa'i, but just throwing in my two cents here).
Similarly, Ratima has also been excellent for the All Blacks this year so there's no point dropping him to the bench just because of one bad performance, while Roigard is still in the early days of his return to play and, as with Tuipulotu above, helped turn a key weakness of the All Blacks this season into a strength. If Ratima plays like he has throughout the rest of the year and Roigard can offer similar impetus as he did against England, then NZ are onto a winning combination - so why mix things up at this stage?
Also @ACT-Crusader and @Landers92, not sure why Stuff were reporting De Groot had a calf injury, but that was never said by the All Blacks.They were pretty emphatic that he'd been stood down for the match for disciplinary reasons (and have openly said he has to play his way back into the team after the performances of Williams and Tu'ungafasi on the weekend).
Tuipulotu was good in all England tests.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
I like PT off the bench. Seems to play with a bit more energy and vigour. And this is going back several years too.
It's always been his best spot at test level..
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I wanna see our uglies g'ing up these Mics with good ol' fashioned rib ticklers and fold them 4x over backwards. Can't afford anything remotely high or the whinging bitches in the crowd will call in some homers for Magic Nick to look at. I'm calling out Scooter, Patty T, Ardie, Sam, Ofa, Tyrel, Te Mighty, Sammi etc to level these carnts so Wallace and CC can run through them. Bluuurrrrr
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@mariner4life it’s fair to say that Scooter hasn’t been in the form he was from late 2022-23RWC where he was our best performing lock. Whether it’s the weight of being captain or not having one of two AB legends right there, but he is well down on the level of impact.
Still does the right stuff very well but he was doing that plus more last year.
he's solidly grafting away in the tough stuff, but you are right, it's the bigger impacts that we're not seeing. I do wonder if he is no longer playing on the edge because of the "c" beside his name.
I don't think he is working as captain at the moment.
Captaincy plus previous cards may well be the reason yeah.
If he's making the decisions like the tap instead of scrum, and short goal line drop out, then I'd rather have someone else do the job. Lineout options have been mentioned and there is also the issue of the poor finishes which has to have on field leadership as a potential cause.
The only other option at the time was probably Ardie, and we'd be having the same conversation or worse I think. -
@mariner4life It’s been great reading everyone’s replies, some really good points made. I’ll try to regain some credibility now, @Booboo, or maybe I’ll lose what little I have left.
I’m also not a particular fan of Barrett at six. The only reason I numbered the players like this is because the suggestion of Tuipulotu at blindside might be even more outlandish. I checked Tuipulotu’s playing history and he hasn’t played a single game there, neither for Auckland nor the Blues. But to be honest, I’m not really sure why it wouldn’t work, especially at Test level, where the space is a lot tighter. He’s a big guy, obviously, but he’s actually pretty mobile, he moves his feet well, and I feel like he’s really fit and conditioned at the moment. So in actuality, he would be the blindside in everything but name in the hypothetical I’m putting forward, only I’d retain his place at tighthead lock in the scrum. Barrett would need to make sure he doesn’t get burned when packing down on the blind, but, apart from that, he would be playing his regular role at lock, doing all the tight stuff through the middle.
Another reason for Tuipulotu’s inclusion from the start is related to Savea’s lesser performances this year. He’s being asked to make a lot of carries through the middle and, to be honest, it hasn’t really worked. If Tuipulotu starts, Savea becomes freed to make more carries on the edge and in midfield, where he excels. With Sititi, Savea and Aumua carrying out wide, and Tuipulotu, Vaa’i, Barrett and the props taking care of the middle, I think you have a dynamic and effective carrying unit. On Saturday, Cane often ended up with the ball and, as @ACT-Crusader already remarked, that’s not really a situation you want to end up with.
All that being said, I probably agree with @Mr-Fish that it’s a sensible decision to stick with the current team selection right now. @reprobate also makes a good point about the clarity around defensive structures for the Irish test. Cane was immense in the quarter final, so the coaching team will be hoping that he can replicate that performance on Friday.
I still think that there’s been something really different about Tuipulotu these past few weeks, a confidence and assuredness I hadn’t really seen before. There aren’t a whole lot of Test matches in a year so when a player makes a case like that, you don’t have a lot of time as a coaching unit to make decisions. For now, they’ve gone with continuity, and I assume Tuipulotu will see a lot of time on the field from the bench again.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@mariner4life it’s fair to say that Scooter hasn’t been in the form he was from late 2022-23RWC where he was our best performing lock. Whether it’s the weight of being captain or not having one of two AB legends right there, but he is well down on the level of impact.
Still does the right stuff very well but he was doing that plus more last year.
he's solidly grafting away in the tough stuff, but you are right, it's the bigger impacts that we're not seeing. I do wonder if he is no longer playing on the edge because of the "c" beside his name.
I don't think he is working as captain at the moment.
Captaincy plus previous cards may well be the reason yeah.
If he's making the decisions like the tap instead of scrum, and short goal line drop out, then I'd rather have someone else do the job. Lineout options have been mentioned and there is also the issue of the poor finishes which has to have on field leadership as a potential cause.
The only other option at the time was probably Ardie, and we'd be having the same conversation or worse I think.The idea for the short goal line drop out may have come from league. Apparently the stats in League say a team is better off going for a short contestable kick rather than a long one that automatically hands the ball over. I know there are other variables at play in Union but I have been wondering if we would see it.
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
shift Scott Barrett to six
Aaand that's where you lose credibility
After last year, Barrett’s form has been a major dissapointment this year
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@mariner4life it’s fair to say that Scooter hasn’t been in the form he was from late 2022-23RWC where he was our best performing lock. Whether it’s the weight of being captain or not having one of two AB legends right there, but he is well down on the level of impact.
Still does the right stuff very well but he was doing that plus more last year.
he's solidly grafting away in the tough stuff, but you are right, it's the bigger impacts that we're not seeing. I do wonder if he is no longer playing on the edge because of the "c" beside his name.
I don't think he is working as captain at the moment.
Captaincy plus previous cards may well be the reason yeah.
If he's making the decisions like the tap instead of scrum, and short goal line drop out, then I'd rather have someone else do the job. Lineout options have been mentioned and there is also the issue of the poor finishes which has to have on field leadership as a potential cause.
The only other option at the time was probably Ardie, and we'd be having the same conversation or worse I think.The idea for the short goal line drop out may have come from league. Apparently the stats in League say a team is better off going for a short contestable kick rather than a long one that automatically hands the ball over. I know there are other variables at play in Union but I have been wondering if we would see it.
I'm not opposed to taking the short drop-out in itself - but what we did is take it, win the ball, and then kick downfield making the same ground that we would have from a long drop-out. That's just all added risk for zero extra reward.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
That 23 is more than capable of beating NZ
They're going to beat up over 16% of their own players?!
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@Mauss losing credibility was a bit harsh. Am enjoying your analysis. But Scooter at 6 fills me with all the yuckies.
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@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@reprobate said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@ACT-Crusader said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@mariner4life it’s fair to say that Scooter hasn’t been in the form he was from late 2022-23RWC where he was our best performing lock. Whether it’s the weight of being captain or not having one of two AB legends right there, but he is well down on the level of impact.
Still does the right stuff very well but he was doing that plus more last year.
he's solidly grafting away in the tough stuff, but you are right, it's the bigger impacts that we're not seeing. I do wonder if he is no longer playing on the edge because of the "c" beside his name.
I don't think he is working as captain at the moment.
Captaincy plus previous cards may well be the reason yeah.
If he's making the decisions like the tap instead of scrum, and short goal line drop out, then I'd rather have someone else do the job. Lineout options have been mentioned and there is also the issue of the poor finishes which has to have on field leadership as a potential cause.
The only other option at the time was probably Ardie, and we'd be having the same conversation or worse I think.The idea for the short goal line drop out may have come from league. Apparently the stats in League say a team is better off going for a short contestable kick rather than a long one that automatically hands the ball over. I know there are other variables at play in Union but I have been wondering if we would see it.
I'm not opposed to taking the short drop-out in itself - but what we did is take it, win the ball, and then kick downfield making the same ground that we would have from a long drop-out. That's just all added risk for zero extra reward.
Yeah and that's what I was I getting at when I mentioned other variables. Like, what do you do if you win it back? Like you said the outcome was the same as kicking it deep anyway. I can't imagine teams would be too interested in running it from their own line unless it is a last throw of the dice, so the only benefit I can think of is teams kicking it out and defending from a line-out. And that's not necessarily ideal.
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@Crazy-Horse I guess if you win it back, there's a higher chance of catching the opposition out, with a staggered defence and it's not uncommon to make good yards off a regathered restart. If you don't, then kick it deep for what would have been the result anyway?
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@Bones said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@Crazy-Horse I guess if you win it back, there's a higher chance of catching the opposition out, with a staggered defence and it's not uncommon to make good yards off a regathered restart. If you don't, then kick it deep for what would have been the result anyway?
Agree on the broken play potential, but the downside of losing the ball 10m from your own line without having your own defensive line set does rate a mention - and the take from Clarke was not uncontested.
Perhaps I'm being harsh. Barrett kicked long off the very first ruck after winning it back - their defence was well formed - but I guess that's a good decision after the first decision was not really worth the risk, no point throwing good money after bad. -
@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@booboo Oh, no worries, I didn't take it as harsh at all. If anything, I'm more uneasy about the fact that I do seem to have some credibility here.
then don't worry, as the Fern is consistently fickle.
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@booboo said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
That 23 is more than capable of beating NZ
And the Captain Obvious Award goes to ... 😀
In response to no chance without Keenan and Furhlong
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@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
I still think that there’s been something really different about Tuipulotu these past few weeks, a confidence and assuredness I hadn’t really seen before. There aren’t a whole lot of Test matches in a year so when a player makes a case like that, you don’t have a lot of time as a coaching unit to make decisions. For now, they’ve gone with continuity, and I assume Tuipulotu will see a lot of time on the field from the bench again.
I hope you are right.
But so far he has been consistently inconsistent at test level. -
@Frank I think a lot of Test rugby comes down to gambling mathematics. You can't really control the outcomes but you can shift the probabilities. I think Tuipulotu offers something interesting within those probabilities.
I also think that's why Rassie Erasmus is such an excellent coach at Test level while not being similarly as successful at Super Rugby or Pro 14 competitions. He's an incredible gambler (and I mean that in a positive way).
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@Mauss said in All Blacks vs Ireland:
I still think that there’s been something really different about Tuipulotu these past few weeks, a confidence and assuredness I hadn’t really seen before. There aren’t a whole lot of Test matches in a year so when a player makes a case like that, you don’t have a lot of time as a coaching unit to make decisions. For now, they’ve gone with continuity, and I assume Tuipulotu will see a lot of time on the field from the bench again.
I think he's been different all through SR as well. He was a warrior, coming back early from injury to lead the Blues to the title. And he was excellent last week against England. That said, I'd be happy for Razor to actually sub him on just after the half on purpose this week, as opposed to being forced to by injury. We need to take a leaf out of Rassie's book, and utilise some of our bench players for a longer period in order to allow them to make the most impact
